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		<title>Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
		<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science</link>
		<description>Posts in the discussion thread &quot;Dreams and visions x Proof and science&quot;</description>
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958767</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958767</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 21:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>obaeyens</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>612249</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>You men coming out BEFORE it happens!<br /> And with before I do not mean 24 hours before but many years before.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958763</guid>
				<title>(no title)</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958763</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 20:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Tomy2011</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>653512</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Just in dreams! In real life, he would never admit that&#8230;</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958739</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958739</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 20:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>snorks</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>603648</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Hand Clow is a derivative writer who copied her stuff from others. Also, if people have these dreams, then why did any of them come forward for the Asian Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, or even the World Trade Towers? Aren't they worthy of warning people since thousands died in these events or a whole city was lost.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958734</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958734</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 19:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Tomy2011</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>653512</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>In truth, according to Wikipedia, Déjà vu is a kind of dream that can happen during the day, but is not predictive, just a sensation that you already did something that you are actually doing. It's very complicated, but is not very scientific.<br /> But, of course, predict something is different than Déjà vu.<br /> However, according to astrology, dreams are just symbolic, not predictive.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958664</guid>
				<title>(no title)</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958664</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>James</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>I had a dream last night that Geryl and I became friends and I was able to get him to admit that he was hoaxing everyone with his claims. Hm.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958620</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958620</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>obaeyens</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>612249</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>is proved that some dreams become real</p> </blockquote> <p>No it does not. There is no scientific based proof in predictive dreams.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958618</guid>
				<title>(no title)</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958618</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 11:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>obaeyens</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>612249</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>One more thing: the science lots of times got wrong.</p> </blockquote> <p>Tell me where did science go wrong?</p> <p>I think science is working pretty good if they can send a probe to Pluto, orbit Mercury, land on Titan, makes you connect to the other end of the world through cell phone, image your internal organs without having to cut your open. Science is everywhere, your paint, car, shoes, and these science based things actually works very reliable.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958581</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958581</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>UndeadxNurse</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>473886</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>I think that this website uses science a lot. For any claim, you debate with 'proofs'. Look, lot of people are having apocalyptic dreams and visions about 2012 and… is proved that some dreams become real, or warn us about something in our life, but it might warn our entire world. Look at the southafrican Desteni, Barbara Hand Clow and other people. Is a coincidence or something more. I'm not saying that the world is going to be destroyed in 2012, but those people deserves attention and cannot be ignored.</p> </blockquote> <p>It's often a rarity that dreams or, &quot;visions&quot; are an accurate view of the &quot;future&quot;.</p> <p>Déjà vu is a more commonplace, and largely misunderstood side effect of dreams, especially dreams of things that may have happened in the past. Three months ago, I had a dream that I was baking an apple pie with a family member, just as I have done several times throughout the years. Today, I'm baking apple pies for Christmas, with family. Déjà vu, of course, but does that really mean anything significant?</p> <p>It's actually ignorant to assume that our brains are giving <strong>specific</strong> individuals glimpses of a doomed future, while it's true that a doomed future lingers just around the corner (that corner being several Billion years into the future), it's still completely speculative that ones dream-state is even sufficient enough to be scientifically tested.</p> <p>Before you say anything.. Yes. We can test your dream-state.</p> <p>The time when your brain is most active is during a nifty little period called &quot;REM Sleep&quot; or, Rapid Eye Movement, it's at this point that the imaginative portions of your brain are at their highest, producing dreams, most often, dreams that we tend not to remember. More often than not, we remember dreams usually because they're traumatic in one form or, another, be it emotionally or, mentally traumatic (yes, you can actually become traumatized by a dream).</p> <p>It's virtually impossible to prove that dreams do indeed come true, the fact is that there's simply not enough data on the subject to even begin to say that it's proven. As someone who has studied in psychology, it's nonsense to say that it's &quot;proven&quot; that dreams do come true.</p> <p>The brain often reflects our emotions. Moody? You'll most likely have a distressing dream, perhaps a dream of murder or, of apocalyptic nature or, just a very, very confusing nightmare. Good mood? You'll most likely have a dream that makes you laugh in your sleep or, dream of a good time in your past. Your brain reflects your emotions by digging up a random sequence of memories. This is why people often see wolves or, animals in their dreams, while others see loved ones or, past events in their dreams. If someone sees something apocalyptic in nature in their dreams, then it's most likely because they've seen it somewhere before. Television, most likely or, they've read it in a novel.</p> <p>That's simply the facts.</p> <blockquote> <p>There are somethings you can't explain, like Nazca stuff.</p> </blockquote> <p>I assume you're speaking of the Nazca Lines.<br /> The creation of the &quot;Nazca lines&quot; are as ambiguous as the creation of the pyramids or, the creation of Stonehenge.<br /> The creation of these points are open to fools who attempt to link extra-terrestrials to them or, to fools who attempt to link a doomsday prophecy to them.</p> <p>The fact is simply this:<br /> Sights such as these, were usually created for religious purposes, especially in those times.<br /> It's assumed that the Nazca Lines (like Stonehenge) was created as sacred paths that the Nazca peoples once walked as part of their rituals, it's not uncommon that ancients of any part of the world would build structures or, monuments for their rituals to take place on, in or, around. More often than not, this was the sole purpose of most of the structures that people can't seem to explain.</p> <p>The sad truth is that modern people can't get their heads out of science fiction novels or, doomsday novels to actually take a step back and simply say &quot;Hey.. This was designed for a ritualistic purpose&quot;, instead of looking for the obvious, they only look for what they want to see, and at this point in time, they want to see &quot;OMG!!! It's a sign of the end or, intelligent life beyond our planet!&quot;</p> <p>Sad truth of life.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958563</guid>
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				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958563</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Dec 2010 08:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>ThreeFangCat</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>609541</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>&quot;One more thing: the science lots of times got wrong.&quot;</p> <p>Outside of people who have already commented on this, I'd like to add the following idea:</p> <p>The reason you know science got something wrong is almost always because science (or, more accurately, modern scientists) CORRECTED what was previously thought to be. Ideas grow and change, and behind it, the driving factor is conforming what is thought to be true to the evidence. This is important.</p> <p>Why is this important? It is because the alternative is to NOT grow and change ideas when presented with new evidence. This becomes dogma, superstition, etc. It may be comforting not to admit an idea you hold as true is in error, but reality doesn't adjust to your whim.</p> <p>As for dreams, if you think people having dreams about 2012 is a relevant argument, I would ask you what about the people who had dreams about 2003? Or about 2000? Or any of the other doomsdays, which have come and gone without incident? The track record of the dreamers isn't very good, is it?</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958267</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958267</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 13:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Tomy2011</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>653512</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Soccer Fan, are you saying that because 10 people had dreams about 2012, this is scarry and need attention? If my dreams and nightmares would become true, the sun would grow-up, burn Earth, i would fall from the 7th floor of a building and be the US president. Dreams are effects of our mind based on what we saw during the day (maybe a movie) or&#8230; based on things we worrie about (the nightmares).</p> <blockquote> <p>Look at the southafrican Desteni, Barbara Hand Clow and other people.</p> </blockquote> <p>This young southafrican predicted what else? Just that &quot;Gaia&quot; (the mother earth) will &quot;reject humanity&quot; in 2012&quot;? Are you kiding me? And Barbara Hand Clow is a astrologer. Look what her article at 2012hoax says:</p> <blockquote> <p>Barbara Hand Clow is a derivative writer who takes other people’s ideas, and then adds her own twist. Her channelings reflect this. In 1995, the Pleiadians were focused on violence in society and not 2012. Only after knowing Arguelles, Calleman, and Jenkins, did she change her channelings. When Hand Clow elevated Satya to Goddess, she set out her actual agenda of bringing back the Divine Feminine. Also by disseminating Calleman’s ideas about 2012, could she then cope with her sons’ deaths. - 2012hoax</p> </blockquote> <p>So, another thing, from Wikipedia, about dreams:</p> <blockquote> <p>During the night there may be many external stimulus bombarding the senses, but the brain often interprets the stimulus and makes it a part of a dream in order to ensure continued sleep. Dream incorporation is a phenomenon whereby an actual sensation, such as environmental sounds, are incorporated into dreams, such as hearing a phone ringing in a dream while it is ringing in reality or dreaming of urination while wetting the bed. The mind can, however, awaken an individual if they are in danger or if trained to respond to certain sounds, such as a baby crying. Except in the case of lucid dreaming, people dream without being aware that they are doing so. Some philosophers have concluded that what we think of as the &quot;real world&quot; could be or is an illusion (an idea known as the skeptical hypothesis about ontology). There is a famous painting by Salvador Dalí that depicts this concept, titled &quot;Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening&quot; (1944). The first recorded mention of the idea was by Zhuangzi, and is also discussed in Hinduism; Buddhism makes extensive use of the argument in its writings. It was formally introduced to Western philosophy by Descartes in the 17th century in his Meditations on First Philosophy. Stimulus, usually an auditory one, becomes a part of a dream, eventually then awakening the dreamer. The term &quot;dream incorporation&quot; is also used in research examining the degree to which preceding daytime events become elements of dreams. Recent studies suggest that events in the day immediately preceding, and those about a week before, have the most influence. - Wikipedia</p> </blockquote> <p>So, the idea that dreams can predict things is ignored. However, dreams can be associated with &quot;real world&quot; while you are sleeping. Like sounds and sensations. The idea that the dreams can predict things is interesting for astrology, not for logic. Is an astrologic way to guess the future, but the truth is: you can't guess it. And, guess what? It's a New Age &quot;evidence&quot;!</p> <p>Have a Nice Day!</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958203</guid>
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				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958203</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Balon</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Dreams about 2012 is normal in situation when some peoples thinking and fear about it.</p> <p>Our dreams often are based on themes procesed by our minds in day.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958113</guid>
				<title>Re: Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958113</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 04:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>bikenbeer2000</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>403189</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>but those people deserves attention and cannot be ignored.</p> </blockquote> <p>They certainly seek attention. They haven't shown any good reason to deserve it. If fewer people indulged them, our job here would be a lot easier.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958109</guid>
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				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958109</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 03:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>TheGreatJuju</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>469590</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Soccer Fan, Jim has dealt with your post, but I have just a few things, briefly&#8230;.</p> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>&#8230;those people deserves attention and cannot be ignored.</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>Why?</p> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>&#8230;the science lots of times got wrong.</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>I think you're confused about what science is. It's a method for explaining observations. The entire discipline in the modern age has been largely founded upon testability and falsifiability. In order for a claim to be scientific, you have to be able to somehow prove it wrong. As such, sometimes scientific propositions <em>are</em> wrong, and it is through this that we figure out which hypotheses and theories are the best.</p> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>There are somethings you can't explain, like Nazca stuff.</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>There's nothing mysterious about the Nazca Lines, unless you completely ignore the evidence. It's not that we can't explain them; it's just that certain people don't like the explanation, opting instead for silliness like space aliens or what have you.</p> <p><a href="http://www.skepdic.com/nazca.html">http://www.skepdic.com/nazca.html</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines</a></p> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>So, sometimes we need something magic to believe.</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>Perhaps <em>you</em> do. I certainly don't. In my opinion, that manner of thinking is tantamount to just giving up. It's lazy, unproductive, objectively useless and, in some cases, downright dangerous. As Jim noted, it makes much more sense to simply withhold judgment, as opposed to invoking magic or aliens simply because you don't understand something.</p> 
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				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958090</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 03:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
								<wikidot:authorUserId>540047</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>I think that this website uses science a lot.</p> </blockquote> <p>I suppose you could say that.</p> <blockquote> <p>Look &#8230; at Barbara Hand Clow.</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.2012hoax.org/barbara-hand-clow" target="_blank">We have.</a></p> <blockquote> <p>[It] is proved that some dreams become real.</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC0LmjBCXfU" target="_blank">One of my own dreams did</a>. Unfortunately, I've had none about 2012. Strangely (and disappointingly) enough, as far as I can tell no one's vivid dreams have told them one thing about 2012 that's undeniably true and genuinely useful: that despite all of their dreams and channeling and whatnot, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DUo0ZnmFBI" target="_blank">prominent 2012 figures are demonstrably incompetent in astronomy</a>. Why doesn't anyone have <strong>that</strong> sort of dream?</p> <blockquote> <p>I'm not saying that the world is going to be destroyed in 2012, but those people deserves attention and cannot be ignored.</p> </blockquote> <p>Please read through all of the links at the left-hand side of the page, then tell us what we've been ignoring. But I would also ask you not to ignore the strong possibility that the dreams are caused by nothing more than overexposure to years of sensationalistic 2012 hype.</p> <blockquote> <p>One more thing: the science lots of times got wrong. There are somethings you can't explain, like Nazca stuff. So, sometimes we need something magic to believe.</p> </blockquote> <p>What can't be explained about Nazca? And why do we need to believe &quot;something magic&quot; just because we can't explain something? I'd rather just admit that I can't explain it.</p> 
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 01:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Soccer fan</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>One more thing: the science lots of times got wrong. There are somethings you can't explain, like Nazca stuff. So, sometimes we need something magic to believe.</p> 
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				<guid>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781#post-958053</guid>
				<title>Dreams and visions x Proof and science</title>
				<link>http://2012hoax.wikidot.com/forum/t-293781/dreams-and-visions-x-proof-and-science#post-958053</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Dec 2010 01:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Soccer fan</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Dear 2012HX team,</p> <p>I think that this website uses science a lot. For any claim, you debate with 'proofs'. Look, lot of people are having apocalyptic dreams and visions about 2012 and&#8230; is proved that some dreams become real, or warn us about something in our life, but it might warn our entire world. Look at the southafrican Desteni, Barbara Hand Clow and other people. Is a coincidence or something more. I'm not saying that the world is going to be destroyed in 2012, but those people deserves attention and cannot be ignored.</p> <p>Cheers,<br /> Soccer Fan</p> 
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