Nearly 60 years of highs and lows for Egypt under presidential rule, and only now are people bothering to focus on it and mold it to suit their needs regarding the apocalypse. Just what is the point? Other than driving people to view content via tags and search rankings?

Still, the more time these people spend here desperately trying to argue their nonexistent case, the less time they spend influencing the ill-informed elsewhere.

Sigh, the ignorance of some people just boggles me.

He does seem to think this is the first time people ever revolted against a government, and the first time a government ever killed people. He's incredibly naive and immature, and at this point I'm having trouble caring about anything he writes on his little woo blog. It's all about the drama and attention.

"This is just yet another example of the world falling to crap, everything’s plummeting right now I really am blown away by the fact that so many people are still either unaware of whats going on or in complete denial about it….I still laugh really hard whenever I think of the criticism I got from 2012Hoax.org about how I was nothing but a ‘woo artist’ and my website was one of those websites that went by the mantra ‘don’t try to tell me things’s aren’t getting worse’

Clearly, because thing’s aren’t getting worse at a rapid pace and we’re not stuck in multiple ‘once in a lifetime’ situations…my bad, I’m going to start taking the Hoax.org’s lead and start saying to everyone that all is well, remain calm there’s no emergency or reason to worry here:"

:insert cliip from the movie Animal House: ….seriously, he really did.

"How appropriate is that clip for our everyday life and situation we’re currently in? That doesn’t even have to be just the hoax.org people, it could be Obama or his administration or a mainstream media ‘news’ outlet really the possibilities are endless. When we step back and look at the people saying that though, it becomes really clear that De Nile is not just a river in Egypt (pun intended…HA get it?) "

I really enjoyed his line about how "things's aren't getting worse". Things is are not getting worse? Really?

Maybe Kyle thinks this is the first time in history that there has ever been an attempted coup d'etat, despite them happening all over the world…ever since the wheel was invented.

Again, I apologize if I'm just feeding the trolls at this point and am not advancing this discussion at all. Kyle's completely detachment from reality has become a fascination of mine.

This is true, yes? You 100% believe in this magical stargates, along with "Apollyon Rising 2012"?

Hell, let's go back even further! Horn's written a /lot/ of books, tying into 'Nephilim' and '2012 Conspiracies'. You, with out a doubt, believe in his word and his word /alone/? Every single thing he has said and printed is /fact/? You put /that/ much faith in a single man and his money-making pyramid scheme?

What are your opinions on Harold Camping, Kyle? Aren't you concerned about May 21st, 2011 being "The End"? Because you sure are willing to believe in anything!

But, I'm sure you've purchased /all/ of Horn's material, yes? Ah, to fuel $1 of production value. No wonder this man won't stop…

I'm curious who the sheep really is?

9/11? Really? So you really think the Maya predicted "something" for 2012 and somehow every government in the world is hiding this "something" even though most of them don't even like each other? Thats um…ha

Black box? So can you give me several examples of times where planes flew into a sky scraper and the black box WAS found? You realize the heat just sitting on top of those buildings, and the added pressure? If one beam snaps with that much weight, you know how much momentum is going to carry downward only increasing the amount of pressure on other beams? Whatever, not 2012 related.

I challenge the freemasons to mess with citizens of some parts of the America. They would be overrun. Also you would think this stuff would have shown up on wikileaks. I loved wikileaks because it simply showed that the government was hiding very petty stuff that didn't really matter, rather than something huge like you are claiming.

I better stop debunking, I may be accused of promoting your ideas. You need to go take a cold shower though man, just live your life and stop brainwashing yourself.

4 on one day weren't found?

It doesn't raise a red flag for me, and shouldn't raise for anyone else. It's just one more weird fact that happened in the world. So?

'bin Laden recognized the attacks' ok, honestly, can you speak arabic and you understand what bin Laden is saying?

No, but millions of people in America and in the rest of the world know what Bin Laden said, because can speak arabic. And I could write exactly what he said in the Google Translate.
But Wikipedia already did this.

If you really want me gone forever, just do the Apollyon Rising 2012. I will keep jumping back here defending myself with the new things being said because as you can see (at the very least I hope you can see) I don't think I'm wrong.

No, you don't want to be wrong. It's quite different.

any sort of chance at all here

This chance I gave to you in the last page, when you said that would turn off your website. You came back with the same claims and attacking other guest (jane doe), I gave you one more chance, and you know what? You are in the limit.

In fact if this 'Jane Doe' is who I think she is, she actually agrees with me on 09/11

Let's see… she already replied you.

play was behind 09/11 even when all the facts added up suggest something completely different.

Every time that something outstanding happens, someone always come with theories against the media/government and this is normal. You are not the only one. Many conspiracy theories were made by people like you since the disaster. It doesn't means that you are right at all.

You need help. I'm serious.

"Not at all. You are really going to use those boxes as a prove against the government/media? Anyway, boxes are not very efficient. So, can easily be lost after a disaster, principally when the disaster is in the ocean."

Boxes are not very efficient? If they can 'easily be lost after a disaster, principally when the disaster is in the ocean' can you explain why these 'not very efficient' boxes have never before in any history of any crash been lost? INCLUDING planes that went down in the ocean, they were ALWAYS recovered, except for on 09/11 and furthermore what planes were on or near an ocean in the 09/11 attacks?

I can't believe you sit there and assert that the 4 boxes, that would tell us EXACTLY who was in the cockpit, what the 'hijackers' were saying what language accents it would answer SOOO many questions that are still open about that day, and you sit there saying it doesn't raise a red flag that for the first time in history (even when planes have gone down in the ocean, the black boxes have been recovered) 4 on one day weren't found? And you guys really all think I"M the crazy one for thinking that, along with Building 7 going down which we weren't told a damn word about (other than BBC reporting it's collapse 40 minutes before it happened) something else is going on and we're not being told the whole story?

'bin Laden recognized the attacks' ok, honestly, can you speak arabic and you understand what bin Laden is saying? Because if not, you're believing the same sources that deny the 4 boxes have been found, and lied about building 7, when you believe that 'bin Laden recognized the attacks' WAKE UP, stop brushing that to the side, you are all very intelligent people and claim to be, yet for whatever reason you REFUSE to believe there was foul play was behind 09/11 even when all the facts added up suggest something completely different.

"I just think that you are scared of the truth, even this truth being in fact a lie"

I'm not the one afraid of the truth, I'm not the one desperately clinging to the BS official story behind 09/11 when all of the information I just presented to you would suggest otherwise to anyone with half of a brain. This is NOT fear mongering, it's NOT me being 'afraid of the truth' honestly, it's you afraid to admit that maybe you were taken for a ride and BSd along with the rest of the country, and the world for that matter, and you took the bait hook line and sinker from day one without actually looking at what happened.

"Kyle2012, if you want to keep some dignity, then stop posting like this. You are embarrassing yourself right now."

Really? I'm the one embarrassing myself here NOT the ones avoiding the 09/11 topic, or asserting that all is well with the official story and there's nothing else going on? My 'dignity' is being kept the longer I keep in here and chime in, because while you guys think that you're right, saying the things that your saying esp concerning 09/11 and continuing to ignore the challenge of Tom Horn's Apollyon Rising 2012 prove I'm not the wrong one in the claims being made. I don't understand why this is so difficult for everyone here to grasp, and seemingly how nobody's going to admit no matter what fact is thrown out at them about 09/11 that there's foul play involved, I don't see how I can't put all my fears of 2012 to rest based on the work that's present here. As I've said, you guys have done a very thorough and very good job debunking about 95% of the claims out there, if you're that confident why not take care of the remaining 5%?

"Go away, whoever you are."

Tell ya what, 'debunk' Apollyon Rising 2012 (I know this is starting to sound like a broken record so hopefully you'll actually address and do so) and not only will I go away, but so will worldwidewakeupNOW and Reality Slap Now. Always and forever, 100% never to reappear in any form. The two 'woo' websites as you call them will be gone and off the internet, not 'scaring' another soul for their $$ and you guys will be the ones behind taking them down. If you can't do that, and you can't admit the flaws behind 09/11, I think we all know who the right and wrong ones are in this conversation or exchange.

"Kyle,

I will give you one more chance to be a little more realistic, because the world is not how you are thinking. It's not full of conspirations. But I will not ensure that the other members/admins have as patience than I have. So, please can you have more common sense and stop inventing new claims and proofs that just doesn't exists?"

First of all Tomy I do need to say thank you because you're the only one actually giving me any sort of chance at all here, and that does mean quite a bit to me.

And here's where all the confusion is lying, "the world is not how you are thinking, it is not full of conspirations." this is where we differ 100% and where all the 'bickering' is coming in, unfortunatley for all of us that's exactly the sickening problem of the 'real world' and why I challenge so many people to 'wake up' to what's really going on. These conspiracies, 09/11, 2012, the government doing this that or the other thing, secret societies like the Freemasons or the Billderbergs, all these conspiracy 'Theories' are really a hell of alot more then just theories and have some serious water behind them.

I know that's crazy and goes against everything we know and see as the truth, but this is why I was constantly saying before 'weve all been lied to and we need to wake up to what's really going on' I can't be any more clear about this, I'm not here for show or profit I'm here because this is what I truly in my heart of hearts believe is happening, and I see the sickening number of people caught victim in this game and know that if people don't wake up to it, more lives are going to be lost.

Again, please understand that's not fear mongering and I'm not calling for panic at all, I"m calling for us all to wake up and realize we've been played for far too long.

"I will ask you a favor: can you be more honest and admit that you are wrong and hasn't any proof?"

Wrong exactly about what? If it's swallowing crow on some of the 2012 claims I once believed as true but you guys have proven me otherwise are absolutely I will come out and admit that I was wrong, didn't have any proof and was wrong for jumping to conclusions. However, when its something like 09/11 or the other claims I've made, no I'm not going to 'admit I'm wrong' because that's exactly it I'm not just saying these things for show, I'm saying them because it's what I believe.

If you look at all the facts too, and put in the missing pieces, you would reach the same conclusion as I have. Easy to do? Absolutely not, infact it's one of if not the most difficult thing you will ever have to do but if/when you can swallow the 09/11 pill and understand we've been played, a lot of these other 'conspiracies' as you're calling them become a lot easier to see as the truth.

I'm not here to hurt or piss anyone off, I'm not here to make money I'm not here to scare people to death, I'm not (despite what you think) a bad or malicious person and I'm not wrong bringing up the things I'm bringing up.

If you really want me gone forever, just do the Apollyon Rising 2012. I will keep jumping back here defending myself with the new things being said because as you can see (at the very least I hope you can see) I don't think I'm wrong.

These claims of 09/11 are not outrageous or not wrong, they may sound so to you because they directly contradict what you're being spoon fed as the truth but as I've been saying from the very beginning that's exactly the problem the majority of the population has. I understand how wrong it sounds to you, and how it makes you not even want to listen to what I have to say, because once upon a time I was on your side with that one laughing at the ones who claimed or even tried to claim our government played a part in it. It took time, but when I stepped back and really looked at everything it was undeniable, if you do the same thing you'll see what I'm trying to say.

In fact if this 'Jane Doe' is who I think she is, she actually agrees with me on 09/11, if this 'jane doe' is the girl I think it is it's the girl I've gone back and forth with 2012 about since my website came out, and though she remains skeptical behind 2012 she has admitted to me, and we've had talks about, the foul play behind 09/11. Maybe that's why now she isn't chiming in

I will give you one more chance to be a little more realistic, because the world is not how you are thinking. It's not full of conspirations. But I will not ensure that the other members/admins have as patience than I have. So, please can you have more common sense and stop inventing new claims and proofs that just doesn't exists?
I understand: you are pretty concerning about this whole thing about 2012, so you want to create new proofs for this big bullshit, when this is not true.
I will ask you a favor: can you be more honest and admit that you are wrong and hasn't any proof?

Peace!

Prove me wrong 'Jane Doe' and come out with either real information or your real name so I can figure out why you're trying to smear me all of a sudden over here.

Kyle/Gregory (or whoever you are), anyone who's read your latest posts would understand why "Jane Doe" wouldn't use her real name.

It's time for you to leave, please.

For the first time in recorded history, 4 of those boxes were 'never found' That doesn't raise a red flag to you?

Not at all. You are really going to use those boxes as a prove against the government/media? Anyway, boxes are not very efficient. So, can easily be lost after a disaster, principally when the disaster is in the ocean.

False illusion of reality, like believing Al-Queada or Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks of 09/11 when there's NOTHING that points to them actually doing it

So, how can you prove that you are right, anyway? Bin Laden himself recognized the attack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Osama_bin_Laden

I think that there's a lot going on we need to take another look at, and I know people are going to jump on me for that one I apologize it's just how I feel.

I just think that you are scared of the truth, even this truth being in fact a lie.

Ok, I understand…

No, you don't.

Tl;dr. Go away, whoever you are.

"Because many people like you think that it is a puzzle and are very scared."

If you have an answer to it, then it's a 'puzzle' otherwise there wouldn't be a need to 'debunk' or answer it. It may not be a 'good' puzzle to some people like you who think it's all BS, but to others like myself and a lot of people it is a jigsaw puzzle. Even if it does turn out to be a flop we need to piece together why all the claims are BS, much like you guys are doing right here

"Perhaps they REALLY weren't found"

Again, this is the first time in recorded history it wasn't found and it wasn't just one, two or even three it was four boxes. For the first time in recorded history, 4 of those boxes were 'never found' That doesn't raise a red flag to you? To me it sounds like you're really not being that critical of a thinker and just going along with what you're told to go along with, what are the odds seriously that for the first time ever all 4 on that one day were never recovered? Slim to none, please open up your eyes and realize there's something fishy going on

"Define Fantasy"

False illusion of reality, like believing Al-Queada or Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks of 09/11 when there's NOTHING that points to them actually doing it, that is ofcourse outside of what the United States Government is suggesting but if you look at all the pieces you can clearly see the government and the 'official story' is lying about something.

"Awake for what? We don't need to 'awake to what's really going on in this world'; No one needs. You are asking some people to begin following your website, as if they follow the truth, but how can you prove that what you claim in it is the reality? You just can't"

Good points, but keep in mind that very little in life can be 100% 'proved' and yes, we do need to be 'awake' to what's really going on in the world because if we're not, we're going to get blindsided by another event with the magnitude of 09/11, or worse which is what I'm fearing. I cannot claim it as the 'reality' 100% much like you can't disclaim it as the reality 100%, I think that there's a lot going on we need to take another look at, and I know people are going to jump on me for that one I apologize it's just how I feel.

And back on 'Jane Doe', I find it so interesting you claim to know me yet continue to make false accusations against me AND won't even leave your real name behind it, hmm…..

"As someone who knows Greg I think that what you have is a person who subconsciously wanted to believe in something to the point of desperation."

You don't know Greg at all, you proved that to me with all the wrong information you posted as 'facts' against me. Unless you start saying things that are actually true, I'd hold back the punches towards one's 'intelligence' you're exposing your ignorance rather quickly here. Maybe not to everyone else because everyone here seems to see me as an enemy, but for me and what I know as the truth I know that you're so full of crap right now your eyes are brown. Prove me wrong 'Jane Doe' and come out with either real information or your real name so I can figure out why you're trying to smear me all of a sudden over here.

"Unfortunately, I don't think he's educated/intelligent enough to handle what he's getting himself into. So what worldwidewakeupNOW is, is whatever he can find that appears to be "evidence" or "hints that something big and disastrous (no matter how vague these events may be)" are coming.

I'm honestly scared for him."

Yea, I'm clearly the uneducated unintelligent one here says the person who has yet to make 1 even respectably true claim about me, and hiding behind 'Jane Doe'

You keep saying it's 'vague' yet you fail to try to go into Tom Horn's Apollyon Rising, I HIGHLY doubt you've even read what I have published over at either of my websites and honestly Ms. Jane Doe, anyone who doesn't see the writing on the wall and know something's behind it are the only ones you should be 'scared for' Don't you dare try to act like a concerned friend here and that you're looking out for my best interest, if THAT were true, you wouldn't have slandered obvious lies all over the place trying to make yourself look above me, or that I've lost my grip on how things really are.

worldwidewakeupNOW is not in it for a profit, there is NOTHING for sale over at my website and I haven't made ANY money off of this, you can continue to assert and think otherwise all you want but my God you're exposing your ignorance. Seriously 'Jane Doe' about 95% or more of what you said is false and it's clear you're only trying to make people think bad things of me…

no way in hell you're a real 'friend' of mine, so stop the charade

If there is no 2012 puzzle, why do you guys have a whole entire website debunking all of the claims being made?

Because many people like you think that it is a puzzle and are very scared.

Perhaps then you can explain to me why for the first time in history, not one, not two, not three, but four little black boxes that are virtually indestructible were never recovered from the scenes of the crashes. Do you really believe they weren't found? If so, that's one hell of a coincidence that it's never happened in history before but on that day it happened 4 flipping times.

Perhaps they really weren't found.

No offense, but I'm not the one living in a fantasy world….I'm not the one buying into official stories behind 09/11, HAARP or any other government projects that have bad intentions behind them. The 'reality' that you me and everyone else here lives in is the actual 'fantasy' you're speaking up.

Define fantasy.

however wwwN has a duel purpose it's not all about 2012 it's also about trying to break away from 'Mainstream Media' news and get everyone 'awake' to what's really going in this world.

Awake for what? We don't need to 'awake to what's really going in this world'; No one needs. You are asking some people to begin following your website, as if they follow the truth, but how can you prove that what you claim in it is the reality? You just can't.

"No, you aren't, because you know full well that nothing is "really coming." You just pulled the conclusion you wanted from your backside, and you are now desperately trying to weave a story around that, which is exactly the opposite of how one conducts good science."

JuJu, this is where you have me wrong I DO NOT think it's all a Hoax and am not 'trying to make a buck' off of 2012, I understand that you're convinced 2012 will not happen and does not pose any major threat I however am on the other end of the coin. I know that you feel you've dismissed and answer all of my fears, but the fact of the matter is while you guys have taught me a lot I didn't know about 2012 (galactic alignment being BS, as well as probably 95% of the claims being made surrounding 2012) I don't feel we're out of danger at all, and still feel a lot of people are going to be blindsided by this ESPECIALLY if they think nothing's going to happen, and aren't even making the smallest preparations for a 'survival plan' or steering clear of the danger.

The way I'm going about it, worst case scenario I've stocked up on survival goods such as freeze dried food water filters etc maybe 'wasting' money on them and 2012 turns out to be a huge flop like the Y2K scare back in 2000 or 2001 for some that wouldn't give up after the year 2000 flopped. However if that happens I still will have the things that I have incase a real emergency ever does break out, be it something cosmic like an asteroid or world war III. The ones who are not preparing because they think it's all a hoax would be severely screwed if/when 2012 unfolds being true…with that in mind, in all honesty which situation would you rather be caught in?

"There is no "2012 puzzle."

If there is no 2012 puzzle, why do you guys have a whole entire website debunking all of the claims being made? It is indeed a puzzle as you guys know many of the believers in 2012, whether they believe it for malicious reasons such as a profit or just feel that the world is going to 'end', don't know exactly what's going to happen in that year or on the winter solstice of that year. Many are desperately trying to figure it out, but no one has and no one will know for sure whats coming, debunkers or believers, until the clock reaches the year 2013. As you guys have even said before, even if there's really no danger around 2012 something screwed up could still wipe us out, like world war III or something of that magnitude (starvation? food prices are rising quickly and are most likely only going to go up from here)

Regarding 'Apollyon Rising 2012' "How do you know I haven't read it?"

I know you haven't read it because if you have read it, or anyone else here that posts on this site would have done what you always do when you come across a piece of 2012 work and 'debunk' it. I have searched your website for 'Apollyon Rising 2012' http://www.2012hoax.org/search:site/q/Apollyon%20rising%202012 and see that you guys have not debunked it. So now the question arises, if you have in fact read it as you're suggesting you have, why haven't you 'debunked' it when you've got such the track record here of putting 2012 fear claims to rest?

And please if you have read it and wouldn't mind doing me and everyone else here a favorite, briefly tell me what the book is about and what Dr. Horn covers in it….I don't want to come out and call you a liar, I just find it extremely suspicious that you haven't tried to 'debunk' it if you have indeed read it.

"I don't buy that for a second. Many of Tom Horn's major claims have been regurgitated by you and yourself on this very forum. Those claims have been handled, but you have ignored all rebuttals in lieu of continuing to propagate your beliefs like a religion, often angrily (as evidenced in recent articles on your website)."

Name 1 of Tom Horn's major claims that have been 'regurgitated' by myself on this very forum. I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe seeing as how I'm not even finished with the entire book myself….and I don't care if you 'buy it for a second' or not, I am a man of my word if you can read through that entire book, and thoroughly 'debunk' it as you have almost everything else in 2012, not only will I shut down Reality Slap Now and worldwidewakeupNOW, I will go so far as to check myself into a mental institution or at the very least, see a Psychiatrist to discuss the issues going on upstairs as many here are now asserting. That's not an 'attack' believe me I know exactly how bad this all makes me look and I know why you guys are distrustful of me right now, and probably just want me to leave and never say a word about 2012 again on this website.

Just 'debunk' the book, because contrary to what you said the facts in Dr. Horn's book have not been 'regurgitated' here by me, infact I just read through everything that I've ever posted here and saw that I did not once mention anything that's in Tom Horn's book up to the part I have read.

"Woo."

Thanks, now I know, LOL even though it's a huge shot at me I have to laugh at that good one

"Your own actions tell folks all they need to know."

At the very least my actions should tell you that I'm sold on the 2012 theory and not doing this maliciously. If it's as elaborate as I think it is, and I really do think it is this way, I needed an unprecedented way to come out to get as many people as possible over to worldwidewakeupNOW. When I first started that website traffic exploded and caught on really fast, however it's leveled off and only slightly rises now I think it's because of the kind of material that's covered there. A lot of people don't want to hear about the 'end of the world' and will dismiss wwwN immediately, however wwwN has a duel purpose it's not all about 2012 it's also about trying to break away from 'Mainstream Media' news and get everyone 'awake' to what's really going in this world. I think atleast I severely hope that even you guys know there is a lot of things going on in this world that the 'news' fails to reports on, and that a lot of what we get spoon fed as the truth is really just what people want us to know as the truth, there's much more out there we should all be aware of but for whatever reason it's hidden from us…now THAT'S a conspiracy.

"Which things, and what are they? How do you know?

Gotta love the vague wording."

The ride we're all being taken for, again I ask that you look behind 09/11 and realize the fishy situation that is and how there's a hell of a lot more to it then the 'official story' tells us. We're being lied to, we're being deceived we're being used as pawns…I don't know how to word it any better then that, my biggest goal on worldwidewakeupNOW is to get people to understand that we're being played like a fiddle, I know you guys don't think our government is 'evil' or malicious, but I have to kindly agree to disagree on that one if they weren't malicious they would not lie to us nearly as much as they do…I know the response is going to be 'Ok Kyle, I mean Greg, the government lies about everything not you..' to which alls I will respond and say is read the posts on my website as to why I've gone about things the way that I have, as sick and wrong as it may make me look and as controversial the tactic may be it's only a mirror solution to what the government is doing to all of us right now.

"Who is we? And do you really mean that — everything? To make such a bold statement, you've sure demonstrated repeatedly that you have great difficulty in making factual, supportable assertions."

WE is all of us, anyone that's not on the other side of the deception game going on. And I say EVERYTHING because I mean EVERYTHING, I'm starting to think that you guys just don't know how much we are being lied to and what's really going on behind the scenes. Please understand 'Secret Societies' such as Freemasons or the Bilderbergs, do exist it's NOT a conspiracy they pull the strings on how everything in this world is run. Whatever we see going on is just the puppet show that the puppet masters (masons, bilderbergs) want us to see, it's not even accurate it's just how they want us to see things.

I beg of thee to look into Freemasons and Bilderbergs, realize the top leaders in our world that are members of either of those groups and ask yourselves what their true intentions are. If they're intentions are only pure and good, why keep their meetings and what's said at them a secret from all of us?

"The facts of 9-11-2001 don't support conspiracy theories."

Dude, do you seriously believe what you're saying when you say that?! Perhaps then you can explain to me why for the first time in history, not one, not two, not three, but four little black boxes that are virtually indestructible were never recovered from the scenes of the crashes. Do you really believe they weren't found? If so, that's one hell of a coincidence that it's never happened in history before but on that day it happened 4 flipping times.

Or perhaps you can explain why Building 7, a World Trade Center building that contained documents from some of the highest level of government including the Secret Service, Department of Defense and C.I.A collapsed much like the world trade center towers did, but no airplane ever hit it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2_nedORjw

Then if you can come up with a good excuse as to why or how that building fell, perhaps you can tell me why 1) it was never reported to any of us I myself didn't even know about this until the year 2010, 9 years after the tragic 'terrorist attacks' happened, and 2) why BBC commented saying that this building collapsed 40 minutes before it actually tumbled down.

You can seriously look at all that and say that "The facts of 09/11 don't support conspiracy theories?" I'm not even going to go into the controversy of the pentagon, I just ask you please open up your eyes and look at the situation again. I understand how difficult it is to swallow or even entertain that our own government played a big role in these attacks, whether it was them behind it or they knew it was coming and did nothing to stop it, but we all need to wisen up and realize what really happened on that morning. I remember laughing at people who thought the government was behind 09/11 much like you all are probably laughing at me over this whole mess right now, but then I actually looked at the facts and what we weren't told about that day…it broke my heart, because there is no doubt in my mind (and there should be little in yours if you actually look at all the facts, not what the news reported to you as 'facts') our government had a big role in this, and used it for their own political agenda. Thousands of lives lost, for a political agenda

"If there's actually "something seriously fishy" with the official story, then you need to present a coherent alternate hypothesis that explains observations better. You can't. Further, "something seriously fishy" with the official story is not evidence that any alternate hypothesis is correct by default."

Please see above argument, and tell me there ISN'T something fishy going on. Be honest to yourselves and to everyone else, did you even know about Building 7? A lot of people didn't and still don't, like I said I was unaware until the year 2010

"Eclipsed perhaps only by your alter egos, these vague, unsupported claims continue to be your best friend."

Again, I understand how this all makes me look and please know I never wanted it to fold out this way, but my 'alter egos' is really a perfect counter to the game of deception we're all facing. Yes, it seems I deceived and lied to everyone and you guys should be angry with me, I was ripshit when I found out how much the government lied to us and we're all victims of the deception machine. The best way to fight fire, sometimes is with fire….alls I'm doing is playing the same game the governments been playing all of us for, I know that will not make sense to you right now, but someday when you realize that these conspiracy 'theories' are a hell of a lot more then just theories and there's something very sick and malicious going on behind the scenes you'll understand why I'm doing things the way that I am.

"I've seen no evidence that you have any interest in truth whatsoever. What you call "truth" is actually fantasy."

No offense, but I'm not the one living in a fantasy world….I'm not the one buying into official stories behind 09/11, HAARP or any other government projects that have bad intentions behind them. The 'reality' that you me and everyone else here lives in is the actual 'fantasy' you're speaking up. Wake up before millions of lives are lost, that's not a dramatization it's not meant to be 'fear mongering' it's being said so you take a step back and realize we're all being taken for a ride, and this ride is a very scary one unless something changes we're not going to like the way that it ends.

"The "whole picture" as you see it is clear enough, and you're quite obviously wrong."

I hope to God you're right, but again I see how caught in the game of deception and how you're believing everything you're being told as the truth when the facts suggest something different. I fail to see how I'm 'obviously wrong' when you clearly don't even know the truth behind 09/11…I'm not the one that's 'obviously wrong' take a step back and look at it all again (although I know you won't, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record in saying that for whatever reason you won't re examine everything that you think you know as the 'truth')

"posted a series of arrogant, nasty articles about this website and its founder, and you continue to do so;"

The first 'nasty' article you speak of was a direct response to the tone you guys took once you found out the 'Greg' and 'Kyle2012' if you're going to come at somebody like that and try to make them look bad usually a response will be fired back. I apologize for the sarcastic tone, but after reading what you guys had said about me here I wasn't exactly in the best mood.

'Continue to do so' link, where exactly there do I specifically point out 2012Hoax.Org? That was in no way a direct 'attack' at you guys and your website what you're failing to see is how asleep everyone is and how everyones buying into the deception game. Round my website, we refer to it as the 'Matrix' and it really is an accurate term, there are countless numbers of people out there that live in a fantasy 'all is well' world with nothing bad going on that's courtesy of the 'machine' of Mainstream media and what we're all being spoon fed as the truth. I'm not singling you guys and this website out, please understand atleast I'd say 65-80% of the population is stuck in this trap, I apologize if you thought for whatever reason (even though I never even really mentioned 2012hoax.org in that article?) I was picking on this website, sometimes in my posts (like the first one you mentioned) yes I was a little irritated with how things went down and sounded off on it, such was not the case in the latter post that you mentioned.

"continue insisting that we must debunk Apollyon Rising: 2012 in order to be on the level with you, despite the fact that the major claims of Mr. Horn's book have already been addressed on this website and message board;"

Again, name 1 thing in Dr Horn's book you've 'addressed' or that I've put on my websites. You quite obviously don't even know what his major claims are, and if you guys truly are the 'debunkers' you say you are I thought that you would 'debunk' EVERYTHING out there on 2012, so why not Dr. Horns book?

There is not a thing coming from this book that's described on your website or this messaging board, and very little over at my website because like I said I"m not even fully done with the book yet. Once I am, you bet there will be posts on it until then not going to happen. Stop pretending you know what's in the book, that you've read it or even know what it's about and be the 'debunkers' you claim to be. I'm a man of my word, you pick that book apart and find 'fallacies' or mistruths in it worldwidewakeupNOW and Reality Slap Now will be taken down permanently, and I'll get the mental help you all think I need. Until that happens, we're not going anywhere and still have a message to get out.

"I think that you somehow want to use this site as momentum for your own site to give the impression that your credibility is sound and scientific. You are playing with words, appear to apology hoping that you get an even wider range of potential 2012 people.

You clearly are not with the same team. I would call it it false friends.
I even don't think you are insane, I think that you love the attention and the power you get by blind followers by doing this. I even think that you know that every claim you make is BS.

If you were truly on the same team and a friend then you would instantly remove your complete sites and recreate the sites from scratch with facts you know are real and stay away from all fuzzy claims. Without condition.

Reality is that your actions hurt people badly, and it might be your sister, father mother, family that will fall victim next because of your sites. Even now after you took down your sites, since Internet stores this information for ages."

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. I'm not 'playing with words' I'm not 'appearing to apologize' I AM apologizing for the way things have gone down because despite what you guys seem to think I never wanted things to go down this way and am regretting that they have. Unfortunately time travel machines to not exist and I cannot go back and change it now, thus I'm stuck in this argument trying to explain why I have done things the way I have which is incredibly difficult and seems as though no matter what you guys just aren't going to take it to heart.

We ARE friends, even if you don't like me or the work that I'm doing I know what's around the corner and know that we're the ones really getting screwed by this. 'Every claim I make' is NOT BS I don't know what it's going to take for you to open up your eyes and see what I'm saying, because it feels like we're going around in circles. The same things you guys keep 'debunking' then calling me uncredible, while you leave out the real questions that I want answered. I'm not going to go down the cherry picking or knit picky road because I don't think it's intentional on your part or mine, I honestly think it's all getting lost in translation somewhere you are focusing in on things you're right about and know are fake, but when it comes to things like "apollyon rising 2012' or 09/11 you beat around the bush without ever looking into those two things and what they're really all about.

I am on the same team as you guys, infact I may put the links to this site back up and take some of the info you have here to correct some of the wrong claims I've made on my site, yes I do have some wrong info up and thought that it was true you guys proved otherwise for MOST of the claims, still there's that last bit that for whatever reason doesn't get answered. I'm not 'doing this for attention' I don't 'love' the attention and followers I get from all of this, am I trying to get people to open up their minds about 2012? Absolutely, because while I know you guys remain convinced it's not going to happen I'm not sold on that safety yet, and think that people are going to be blindsided if they think it's all a giant bullshit hoax.

If we agree on one thing it's that nobody should be hurt or taken down over this, I understand you guys think I'm scaring people or making them suicidal that's not my intentions and look at it from my point of view because in my eyes you're giving people a false sense of security, when they could be making preparations to pull through whatever's ahead. IMO you're putting lives on the line, you're not meaning too you're intentions are good I understand what you're trying to do here which is why, despite the fact you don't seem to have it for me I have a lot of respect for each and every one of you. You need to understand I'm not doing this maliciously I'm doing it for the same reason you are, to help people…if you knew 09/11 was happening and where it was going to hit before it all went down, would you be anywhere near New York on that morning n 2001? It's not meant to fear monger, it's meant for preparation I've been preaching since day one that it's important not to panic, and that we can only prepare for the absolute worst while praying for the absolute best.

This next part is absolutely laughable the person 'claiming to know me' in real life:

"I'm not an expert in astrology, astronomy, mysticism, history, extra-terrestrial life or any field in that nature. I don't pretend to be."

Awesome…I believe I've said the same thing several times on my website and let people know that it's all my interpretation of things. Why this person comes out and says that right away I don't know, but keep that fresh in mind as we look towards the other just completely wrong claims made by this person.

"I will say, however, that I know "Kyle2012" on a very personal level. His claims of "studying 2012" for years are false."

The year is now 2011, I first learned about 2012 in late 2007 early 2008 and from the very beginning I became obsessed with it trying to find as much information as possible. This person's claim is a flat out lie, I wonder why they left their name as 'Jane Doe' instead of someone I really supposedly know.

"He saw the Fourth Kind about a year ago and immediately plunged off the deep end."

I'll give the date to you on that one it was May 2010 that I saw 'The Fourth Kind' plunging off the deep end is pretty dramatic to say, did it change my life? Absolutely did, what this person fails to realize is 'The Fourth Kind' was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back in terms of worldwidewakeupNOW, I had known about 2012 for years (tho this 'friend' wants to suggest otherwise) but never wanted to come forward and make a website about it to try to spread awareness until I saw this movie.

" I basically was a first-hand witness to his immediate downward spiral from a normal-functioning human being to a ranting, schizoid blogger who is all of a sudden an expert on all this doomsday stuff. He literally had worldwidewakeupnow.com up about a month after seeing The Fourth Kind"

Well I find this person claiming to be a 'first-hand witness' saw me going from a 'normal-functioning human being to a ranting, schizoid blogger who is all of a sudden an expert on all this doomsday stuff.' true at all because everything she's said so far (and for the rest of the message for that matter) is completely off base and wrong. I didn't 'all of a sudden become an expert' on this 'doomsday stuff' I had known about it for a long ass time and not opened my mouth to her or any of my friends about it because I know how controversial of a subject 2012 is. What this person is failing to realize, yet again, is that just because 'she' didn't know a thing about 2012 until I started my website does not mean miraculously over night I became a 'doomsday expert' I really wonder why this person claiming to know me didn't leave their name, I'm sure it has nothing to do with how wrong he/she is on the claims she's making about me oh and another thing 'about a month after seeing 'The Fourth Kind' is again wrong, the very next morning after seeing that movie worldwidewakeupNOW was created, she may be getting confused and try to take me down because the articles on the website you see now only go back to June, but when I first started the website it was a completely different template and format about 2 weeks into it I changed the look behind it thus dropping all the info that was published to date, at that time we were a couple of weeks into June.

So again, 'Jane Doe' is wrong and at this point I severely doubt she's anyone I know in my real life.

"and for a while (I don't know if he still is) but he was trying to make a dime off of these "Secret Extreme Files" that he was selling to people for some outrageous price."

Ahahaha that is rich, the '2012 eXtreme Files' this 'friend' is speaking of once upon a time were being written on my website and were for sale for a whopping price of $4

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=vt4Np3PopbdAONYTZxNcE2VoIu4vjVaEzI9ZK1kerdElt7avAHWZ2gsEDpK&dispatch=50a222a57771920b6a3d7b606239e4d529b525e0b7e69bf0224adecfb0124e9b61f737ba21b08198ad5733caaf944cbac24b2728ea935a7c

So uh, that 'outrageous' price for $4 I guess you could call that a scam especially considering they took me weeks to write, but now because I did feel bad for even asking $4 instead of that once a month they are given out free to subscribers of my website, and to subscribe to my worldwidewakeupNOW costs a bank breaking $0.00 so yea, I'm a huge con artist making a fortune on scaring people around the 2012 doomsdate, great call Jane Doe, you seem more and more credible the further we go down your claims you definitely know me like the back of your hand.

"Though I will admit, he could churn those things out. I think he wrote 24 pages on 2012 "woo" stuff in one night. But it was all misguided, factually inaccurate, and read like a person with no formal education wrote it."

This is also extremely suspicious because I know for a fact not one of my 'friends' or any family members ever purchased one of those eXtreme files, but she can continue taking jabs at me as she pleases considering how credible her argument is.

"In all honesty, I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, but my honest assessment is that something is just not right with him psychologically anymore. I watched this kid grow up and he seemed to go off the deep end quick. Because of all this BS, he's lost his job and is ruining relationships with friends like me. I'm not sure if something more serious was going on in his life, and he's using this Woo crap to escape/ignore it all or if he just plain went nutty."

I'd beg to differ with you on that one 'Jane Doe' quite obviously you ARE trying to make a personal attack on me by making false claims and pretending to everyone that you know me in real life and 'watched me grow up' Lost my Job? You mean Sprint the job I actually quit to work full time on worldwidewakeupNOW before finding employment elsewhere couple months down the road after that? and this is 'ruining relationships' with 'friends' like you? I don't know who you are and highly doubt that you even know who I am, but I would NEVER want to be 'friends' with someone that would try to smear me like that with absolute horse crap. There's something serious going on in my life alright, that something big is coming our way and 'friends' much like this one here don't have the slightest clue it's coming and unless they open up their eyes and realize it's coming they're severely screwed.

"At this point neither would surprise me" ya it wouldn't surprise you because you obviously have no idea who I really am and we've never met before in real life.

"Could it be that he somehow thought that it would make a lot of money fast scheme?"

Oh yea like I said that $4 per issue really rolled in the dough for me, I'm just happy I could make millions off of it before you all caught onto my game, how's that for a 'woo' artist?

Nobody's 'deliberately lying' as you suggest, again read 'Apollyon Rising 2012' 'debunk' it and I'll take down both of the websites that I have and you'll never hear from me again, until then I'd suggest you'd stop making accusations about me and realize that until 2013 comes around NO ONE will know the 100% truth about what will happen, much as you have a right to disbelieve it and do what you see fit I have a right to believe in it and get the message out I see fit.

I don't know what it will take for you to understand that I'm not a con artist, I'm not doing this for a profit and that THERE IS DANGER around the corner, I'm not promoting panicking because that would be absolutely the worst thing you could do, but it is important to be aware of what's going on so that you're not blindsided by all of this

As someone who knows Greg I think that what you have is a person who subconsciously wanted to believe in something to the point of desperation. It just so happens that this doomsday nonsense happens to be what he latched on to. Unfortunately, I don't think he's educated/intelligent enough to handle what he's getting himself into. So what worldwidewakeupNOW is, is whatever he can find that appears to be "evidence" or "hints that something big and disastrous (no matter how vague these events may be)" are coming.

I'm honestly scared for him.

I will say, however, that I know "Kyle2012" on a very personal level. His claims of "studying 2012" for years are false. He saw the Fourth Kind about a year ago and immediately plunged off the deep end. I basically was a first-hand witness to his immediate downward spiral from a normal-functioning human being to a ranting, schizoid blogger who is all of a sudden an expert on all this doomsday stuff. He literally had worldwidewakeupnow.com up about a month after seeing The Fourth Kind, and for a while (I don't know if he still is) but he was trying to make a dime off of these "Secret Extreme Files" that he was selling to people for some outrageous price.

Though I will admit, he could churn those things out. I think he wrote 24 pages on 2012 "woo" stuff in one night. But it was all misguided, factually inaccurate, and read like a person with no formal education wrote it.

In all honesty, I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, but my honest assessment is that something is just not right with him psychologically anymore. I watched this kid grow up and he seemed to go off the deep end quick. Because of all this BS, he's lost his job and is ruining relationships with friends like me. I'm not sure if something more serious was going on in his life, and he's using this Woo crap to escape/ignore it all or if he just plain went nutty.

At this point neither would surprise me.

I think that you somehow want to use this site as momentum for your own site to give the impression that your credibility is sound and scientific. You are playing with words, appear to apology hoping that you get an even wider range of potential 2012 people.

You clearly are not with the same team. I would call it it false friends.
I even don't think you are insane, I think that you love the attention and the power you get by blind followers by doing this. I even think that you know that every claim you make is BS.

If you were truly on the same team and a friend then you would instantly remove your complete sites and recreate the sites from scratch with facts you know are real and stay away from all fuzzy claims. Without condition.

Reality is that your actions hurt people badly, and it might be your sister, father mother, family that will fall victim next because of your sites. Even now after you took down your sites, since Internet stores this information for ages.

I know how crazy I look given after everything that has unfolded over all of this drama I created in such a short amount of time,

Ya think?

I'm not an enemy of 2012Hoax.org at all

People make claims. We respond. You are definitely an "opponent" of this website, because everything you've proposed in the context of your exchanges with 2012Hoax members runs counter to science, logic and critical thinking.

I'm just trying to find out/expose the truth of what's really coming.

No, you aren't, because you know full well that nothing is "really coming." You just pulled the conclusion you wanted from your backside, and you are now desperately trying to weave a story around that, which is exactly the opposite of how one conducts good science.

…you guys have provided the 'missing link' for my personal 2012 puzzle

There is no "2012 puzzle."

many people are divided on the subject both thinking it's absolutely real or it's an absolute bullcrap 'Hoax'

Because it is an "absolute bullcrap 'Hoax,'" but for some reason folks of your ilk have a hard time wrapping you minds around that.

Here's the message that I want to put forth,

You and your alter ego have already put forth your "message." It was obliterated.

any one of you guys that have participated in this conversation or this website please read the book 'Apollyon Rising 2012' by Tom Horne

How do you know I haven't read it?

and debunk what he is claiming in that book, if you can do that successfully for me and come out writing a huge report on anything really any of you guys have debunked here then I will happily come out to the world revealing my true self and shut both of my 'woo' websites

I don't buy that for a second. Many of Tom Horn's major claims have been regurgitated by you and yourself on this very forum. Those claims have been handled, but you have ignored all rebuttals in lieu of continuing to propagate your beliefs like a religion, often angrily (as evidenced in recent articles on your website).

(as you call them, I don't know what that means really though)

Woo.

I will stop the 'fear mongering' you think I'm doing explain to everyone that I am a bat shit crazy lunatic that was clearly wrong and never should have opened my mouth about 2012

Your own actions tell folks all they need to know.

because if you can prove to me that book is fake or a hoax then you will prove to me that I need mental help and need to immediately cease and desist with the work I'm doing over at worldwidewakeupNOW or RealitySlapNow.com

You've already regurgitated Horn's major claims. We've already dealt with them. Yet you're still here, having failed to respond but determined to keep preaching.

I ask before you do that to take a step back and realize that things are not what they seem,

Which things, and what are they? How do you know?

Gotta love the vague wording.

…we've been being played by our own government

In some ways, no doubt.

…everything we think we know as the truth

Who is we? And do you really mean that — everything? To make such a bold statement, you've sure demonstrated repeatedly that you have great difficulty in making factual, supportable assertions.

(specifically, just look at all the facts surrounding 9/11,

The facts of 9-11-2001 don't support conspiracy theories.

I know that all of you with the level of intelligence and challenges you have brought forth to me are smart enough to recognize, once given all the facts, that there's something seriously fishy and wrong about the 'official story' we've all been told.

If there's actually "something seriously fishy" with the official story, then you need to present a coherent alternate hypothesis that explains observations better. You can't. Further, "something seriously fishy" with the official story is not evidence that any alternate hypothesis is correct by default.

we're being played as pawns, that's what I feel the real 'hoax' is about

Eclipsed perhaps only by your alter egos, these vague, unsupported claims continue to be your best friend.

you guys are on the same team that I am

If you're on our "team," you need to show a better understanding of science, logic and basic critical thinking skills.

so dismiss all these fears with full proof answers I will happily shut both of my websites down….

Your claims have already been handled, yet your websites are still up, and you're still posting angry articles about 2012Hoax.

I'm not here for malicious reasons or to make a profit, I just want to know the truth

I've seen no evidence that you have any interest in truth whatsoever. What you call "truth" is actually fantasy.

and maybe just maybe I'm seeing things on a level you never thought to look on before)

Then why do you cling to so many ideas that have been shown false? Why can't you make an argument without committing multiple fallacies? Why is your understanding of basic science and history abysmally flawed?

Please know I'm not trying to 'scare' anyone or make them near suicidal

Whether you and your ilk consciously try to do this is irrelevant to the fact that it happens.

I just want everyone to see the whole picture as I see it.

The "whole picture" as you see it is clear enough, and you're quite obviously wrong.

We're on the same team my friends

No, and speaking for myself only, I'm not your friend.

I apologize if I ever came across otherwise.

So you…

• posted a series of arrogant, nasty articles about this website and its founder, and you continue to do so;
• came here under at least two different identities and attempted to "defend" yourself dishonestly;
• continue clinging to demonstrably false notions of history and science;
• continue insisting that we must debunk Apollyon Rising: 2012 in order to be on the level with you, despite the fact that the major claims of Mr. Horn's book have already been addressed on this website and message board;
• manufacture drama and controversy, apologize, then keep doing it. Spam much?

We've been down this road, Kyle/Greg/Whoever. Bill engaged you at first because you presented yourself as open to reason (an impression which has long since dissolved). I engaged the claims on your website in this thread simply because a curious poster here stumbled across one of your articles and requested that someone respond. You've gotten maybe a handful of comments from 2012Hoax regulars, primarily Jim, in response to some of your more outlandish claims and accusations. Beyond that, I don't think anybody really cares what do you do, in spite of your claim about being "flooded" with messages. I certainly don't care enough to follow you around and comb the deepest recesses of your website, when you can't even do us the courtesy of using a consistent persona and responding to rebuttals. The few times you have responded, you've been so confused and inclined toward dishonesty that I find it hard to believe you didn't do it on purpose.

Contrary to the claims on your site, this is not a "debate" between Kyle/Greg/Bob/Sam/George/MysteryBoy and 2012Hoax. Every point you've raised that might fit under the umbrella of debate has been rebutted, and you've largely ignored this in favor of the common woo tactic of bringing up new claims and other red herrings, and repeating your claims in place of defending them.

'Apollyon Rising 2012' by Tom Horne

One more proponent for the wiki.

Please know I'm not trying to 'scare' anyone or make them near suicidal, I just want everyone to see the whole picture as I see it. We're on the same team my friends, I apologize if I ever came across otherwise.

Well, I accept your apologizes and I understand that you don't want to scare anyone. Most 2012ers don't realize the harm they caused and are still causing and don't stop, but you realized, and I think is just great.
You just changed sides, and woke up for reality.

Peace!

Here's the message that I want to put forth, any one of you guys that have participated in this conversation or this website please read the book 'Apollyon Rising 2012' by Tom Horne and debunk what he is claiming in that book, if you can do that successfully for me and come out writing a huge report on anything really any of you guys have debunked here then I will happily come out to the world revealing my true self and shut both of my 'woo' websites (as you call them, I don't know what that means really though) immediately. I will stop the 'fear mongering' you think I'm doing explain to everyone that I am a bat shit crazy lunatic that was clearly wrong and never should have opened my mouth about 2012, because if you can prove to me that book is fake or a hoax then you will prove to me that I need mental help and need to immediately cease and desist with the work I'm doing over at worldwidewakeupNOW or RealitySlapNow.com

I ask before you do that to take a step back and realize that things are not what they seem, we've been being played by our own government that is supposed to exist before our own good for far too long, everything we think we know as the truth (specifically, just look at all the facts surrounding 9/11, I know that all of you with the level of intelligence and challenges you have brought forth to me are smart enough to recognize, once given all the facts, that there's something seriously fishy and wrong about the 'official story' we've all been told. we're being played as pawns, that's what I feel the real 'hoax' is about you guys are on the same team that I am, so dismiss all these fears with full proof answers I will happily shut both of my websites down….realize I'm not here for malicious reasons or to make a profit, I just want to know the truth and maybe just maybe I'm seeing things on a level you never thought to look on before)

Please know I'm not trying to 'scare' anyone or make them near suicidal, I just want everyone to see the whole picture as I see it. We're on the same team my friends, I apologize if I ever came across otherwise.

Greg Gustafson

TheGreatJuju

On a side note, I have a conspiracy theory of my own brewing. It rests in part on the remarkable similarity in writing style between "you" [Greg Gustafson] and Kyle, the curious similarity of your domain names (realityslapNOW and worldwidewakeupNOW), an identical registrar and nameservers for both domains, and both domain names were registered in close proximity (7/23 and 6/9, respectively). Hmm….

I think TheGreatJuju will want to look at this link, where Gregory Kyle Anderson confesses:

[*Kyle2012
January 10, 2011 at 10:39 am | # | Reply

Hans,
That’s a ‘secret’? only worldwidewakeupNOWers should be keen too right now, there is a reasoning behind it (for anyone who doesn’t know my real name is Gregory Kyle Gustafson) went by Kyle here because of the extreme rhetoric entertained, kind of an identity protection thing while I went by Greg at the other website now because I feel that has the potential to reach a much bigger audience then ‘Kyle2012′ can get over here, if people knew or I went by ‘Kyle’ over there they may have immediately dismissed the information because of this websites postings.

It is a bit of a gamble, on one hand I have the chance to open up a ton of minds ultimately everybody will catch on that it’s one in the same but hopefully at that point they’ll already be ‘awaken’ and it won’t be a turn off to them, on the other hand it totally flops and makes me look like a schizzoprenic paranoid looney tune…I guess time will tell

Hmmmmm….

makes me look like a schizzoprenic paranoid looney tune…

You said it, Kyle/Gregory; I didn't.

There's no doubt that somehow someway all of our lives will forever change in 2012, if we band together now and figure out what it is how/before that happens we won't be blindsided and will all shape our future and destiny together.

This is a good example of the vague, unsupported fear-mongering assertions that send kids all over the Internet to find out what it is that they should be afraid of, and make some of them nearly suicidal. Please, listen to TheGreatJuju and 3WMElliott, and desist.

there are things going on behind the scenes right now that many if not all of us are unaware of

How do you know things are going on if none of us can ever be aware of them?

things are taking place that cannot be explained such as the recent massive kill offs in the news of 2011, the birds dying off, fish dying off, etc

Each and every incident can be locally explained, that is to say looking at the evidence at the scene of the deaths, rather than invoking a mystical, untestable force, or using an ancient text as proof.

Kyle's point in tying 2012 to 09/11 is indeed relevant, because if you step back and take a big look at 09/11 you realize there is something very off about the 'official story' of what we were all told and believe were the events that unfolded on that very day.

Despite disagreeing with you there on every possible level, this isn't a 9/11 forum. We simply do not care what you believe about any aspect of any thing, but if you're going to assert something concerning 2012, you'd better have the evidence to back it up thoroughly.

Realize we're all in this game together, and instead of suggesting that the other side is completely wrong maybe it is time that we all come together and place forth what we know so that we can put on the table and prepare for what happens in 2012, rule out all the complete 'hogwash' such as the galactic alignment and other outrageous claims that were made and figure out exactly what is going to happen.

The difference being you believe something different enough from the norm will happen in the first place, but cannot provide evidence. I can say with absolute certainty that an earthquake will hit in 2012, and I can say with a high degree of confidence that some rumbling will be felt on or very close to Dec 21st, but I say this because of the statistics that have been gathered from umpteen years worth of earthquake detection data, not because of the false prophecy of an ancient culture for example.

If you can ever assert what will happen, I and many others will gladly look into it and see where it goes. But if you can only ever say that something will happen because you've got a feeling for it, then I'm not really going to be fussed. Of course something will happen, something is happening every second of every day. The key is that something Earth-shattering is not likely in the slightest, or in many cases put forward by proponents, flat out impossible.

Don't close your minds 100% either way, maybe it is all a hoax then again maybe it's not the only thing that will put those fears to rest finally is when the clock strikes the new year of 2013.

We don't close our minds, we test whatever can be tested. Everything that can be tested most likely has a page on the left there, or a thread in the forums. What can't be tested simply isn't science, it's a funny feeling you've got. The world doesn't really care for funny feelings inside someone's stomach.

While I do hope you are right in saying 2013 will bring a finality to 2012, I think we both know it won't. It'll be altered, it'll be tinkered with, it may even be completely repackaged, but that won't stop the fact that ultimately if there is nothing to test, then there is nothing but an idea, a story, a feeling, one that will continue to make money and spread baseless fear for a long time to come.

…there was some slander even some derogatory things said about my website 'Reality Slap Now.com' or http://realityslapnow.com/.

Please, elaborate. Also, it is impossible to slander anyone in print. That's called libel. I contend that no one here has done either. Further, something is not slanderous or libelous simply because you think it is derogatory.

there are things going on behind the scenes right now that many if not all of us are unaware of

There are always "things going on behind the scenes," because humans have, for better or worse, created governments and other institutions to deal with such "things." The question is: are these things unusually nefarious or significant?

things are taking place that cannot be explained such as the recent massive kill offs in the news of 2011, the birds dying off, fish dying off

We have discussed this in great detail here and here, and we have shown that such die-offs of wildlife occur regularly, every couple of days, and that's just in North America. Around the world, we might have as many as several die-offs per day in any given year, and this has been documented for decades.

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/quarterly_reports/index.jsp

Kyle's point in tying 2012 to 09/11 is indeed relevant, because if you step back and take a big look at 09/11 you realize there is something very off about the 'official story' of what we were all told and believe were the events that unfolded on that very day.

If you take a step back, you might realize that the above claim is a logical train-wreck. Consider a similar statement: "Reverend Smith's point in tying the Rapture to the Kent State massacre is indeed relevant, because if you step back and a take a big look at the massacre, then you realize there is something very off about the 'official story'…."

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the error in reasoning known as non sequitur.

It's bullshit

It might very well be, but that does not automatically make any of the "alternative" hypotheses or claims correct.

look at everything and look at what we weren't even told including the pentagon attacks as well as the attacks on 'Building 7' that were kept secret from all of us Americans

I have no idea what you mean about the Pentagon strike being kept from the public, and WTC 7 conspiracies have been debunked hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

In any event, this is not a forum for 9/11 "truthers" to voice their tired, old canards.

…as many of you here are suggesting the prophetic date of 12/21/2012 will go down to be.

2012 is not a "prophetic date."

Know that 11 years prior to the attacks of September 11th, that same date in the year 1990 then president George H. W. Bush had made a speech about how current events then gave an opportunity to 'forge' a 'New World Order'

Here we have the equivocation fallacy that woo artists and believers hinge entire world-views on, wherein they quote statements about any "new world order," but then erroneously capitalize "New World Order" in hopes of lending legitimacy to conspiracy claims.

Both George H. W Bush and George W. Bush were 'Freemasons' a fraternal secret society that only a select number of 'chosen ones' knew what their true intentions with the world was. What we know about the freemasons we can only look at through studying, that it's a very deep and complex group of individuals that get higher and actual have 'levels' of knowledge and that very same group has concrete ties to our forefathers, everything that America is built on is built upon Masonic rituals and beliefs if you want proof of what I am saying look at the back of any $1 dollar bill.

Do you actually know anything about freemasonry?

Kyle is very right to think that there is grave danger in 2012

Actually, Kyle is very wrong and doesn't even understand the basic science of things he talks about. He's a cog in the fear-mongering machine of pseudoscience and conspiracy belief, whether he likes it or not. Apparently, so are you.

you all argue its for profits and money

False. A number of the people writing books and selling survival products are charlatans, but there's also a significant contingent of 2012ers whom we refer to as True Believers™, some who are simply confused, and still others who spread falsehoods for sheer entertainment value.

but the truth is much deeper then that when you look at cryptic signs like that is what is on the back of a dollar bill

Don't be a tool.

http://www.greatseal.com/mythamerica/index.html

…and take a step back looking at America's entire history, and what REALLY went down on the morning of September 11th 2001.

In order to convince anyone of what "REALLY went down on the morning of" 9/11/01, you must construct a coherent alternative hypothesis that is consistent with reality, and this is assuming you've identified some lethal deficiency in the "official" story, which I suspect you have not.

…know that 11 years prior to that event George Bush's father George H. W Bush was making a speech calling for a 'New World Order'

Equivocation fallacy.

And you go on and on and on….

…eleven years from September 11th 2001 leads you right into the controversial date of 2012.

This is just another demonstration of your desperate selectivity. Why do you chop off the month and date? It is far more precise to say, "Eleven years from September 11, 2001 leads to September 11, 2012." Even that is debatable, because 2004, 2008 and 2012 were/will be leap years, meaning the calculation depends on whether you mean sidereal year, tropical year, anomalistic year, some arbitrary year of your own invention, etc. Of course, the doom date in 2012 is typically placed on December 21, so I guess it's not nearly as fun when you're specific.

Ah, you guys and your straw-grasping….

If you really want to chop all of that up to coincidence or a hoax be my guest…

It isn't coincidence. It's the human brain's insistence on finding patterns, even when none exist. It's a failure to think critically.

…if not I concur with Kyle and suggest that everyone here reads Dr. Tom Horn's 'Apollyon Rising 2012' with an open mind and open heart.

"Open heart" is a type of surgery, not a state of being, and having an "open mind" is not equivalent to being open to any magical claim you are given. I suggest you and Kyle and all of your fellow woo artists/believers read a primer on critical thinking, logic and the scientific method.

Realize we're all in this game together

I don't think it's a game. People like you and Kyle unnecessarily frighten a lot of people with bogus information.

…and instead of suggesting that the other side is completely wrong maybe it is time that we all come together and place forth what we know so that we can put on the table and prepare for what happens in 2012

I never suggested that Kyle is wrong. I dissected a number of his claims and clearly showed that he is. I don't know if he is "completely" wrong about everything, because I haven't read every claim he ever made, nor do I have any intention of doing so. He's demonstrated on a few occasions that he isn't very willing to think critically, despite trying to portray himself otherwise. Engaging such people, beyond the benefit of addressing their nonsense for people who might be confused by, is largely an exercise in futility.

…rule out all the complete 'hogwash' such as the galactic alignment and other outrageous claims that were made and figure out exactly what is going to happen.

This assumes that anything spectacularly unusual is "going to happen" at all. Why make that assumption? What do you think is "going to happen?"

There's no doubt that somehow someway all of our lives will forever change in 2012…

I think there's a lot of doubt.

…if we band together now and figure out what it is how/before that happens we won't be blindsided and will all shape our future and destiny together.

There's that vague, baseless assumption again.

I think thats all Kyle was really trying to say….

No, that isn't all Kyle was trying to say. In just the one article about 2012Hoax that I address in this thread (he wrote several), he makes false claims regarding:

• Planet X,
• secret bunkers,
• solar flares,
• a breach in Earth's magnetosphere.

He makes further posts that perpetuate myths about earthquakes, weather patterns and numerology. Your claim that Kyle merely sought to "band together" for mutual benefit is empirically false.

…he never meant it as an attack

Yes, he did.

Don't close your minds 100% either way…

My mind is permanently open to anything that can be presented coherently, with respect to reason and evidence. You and Kyle and other 2012ers fall remarkably short in this regard.

…maybe it is all a hoax then again maybe it's not

You've provided zero evidence for the latter.

…the only thing that will put those fears to rest finally is when the clock strikes the new year of 2013.

That depends. Given your chosen brand of woo, do you expect 9/11 "truthers" and Illuminati conspiracy claimants to suddenly shut up on 1/1/2013? I don't.

On a side note, I have a conspiracy theory of my own brewing. It rests in part on the remarkable similarity in writing style between "you" and Kyle, the curious similarity of your domain names (realityslapNOW and worldwidewakeupNOW), an identical registrar and nameservers for both domains, and both domain names were registered in close proximity (7/23 and 6/9, respectively). Hmm….

You never did point out what "[libelous]" and/or "derogatory" claims were supposedly leveled against you.

My two cents can best be seen in my latest post: http://realityslapnow.com/2011/01/novus-ordo-seclorum/

If you don't have time to read it all know that the summary of the story is as follows, there are things going on behind the scenes right now that many if not all of us are unaware of, things are taking place that cannot be explained such as the recent massive kill offs in the news of 2011, the birds dying off, fish dying off, etc all happening while 2011 is brand spanking new. Kyle's point in tying 2012 to 09/11 is indeed relevant, because if you step back and take a big look at 09/11 you realize there is something very off about the 'official story' of what we were all told and believe were the events that unfolded on that very day. It's bullshit, look at everything and look at what we weren't even told including the pentagon attacks as well as the attacks on 'Building 7' that were kept secret from all of us Americans you'll see there's something that just does not add up about the date of September 11th 2001, as terrifying and wrong as it was it goes down in history as a hoax for the official story of whatever went down that day and whatever the true reasons will never be answered and therefore must go down as a 'hoax' as many of you here are suggesting the prophetic date of 12/21/2012 will go down to be.

Know that 11 years prior to the attacks of September 11th, that same date in the year 1990 then president George H. W. Bush had made a speech about how current events then gave an opportunity to 'forge' a 'New World Order'

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Both George H. W Bush and George W. Bush were 'Freemasons' a fraternal secret society that only a select number of 'chosen ones' knew what their true intentions with the world was. What we know about the freemasons we can only look at through studying, that it's a very deep and complex group of individuals that get higher and actual have 'levels' of knowledge and that very same group has concrete ties to our forefathers, everything that America is built on is built upon Masonic rituals and beliefs if you want proof of what I am saying look at the back of any $1 dollar bill.

Kyle is very right to think that there is grave danger in 2012 much as you guys are very right to think it is all a giant 'hoax' something is being created for some reason, you all argue its for profits and money but the truth is much deeper then that when you look at cryptic signs like that is what is on the back of a dollar bill, and take a step back looking at America's entire history, and what REALLY went down on the morning of September 11th 2001. Know that the 'Freemasons' see the number 11 (a figure that made the shape of the twin towers) as a symbolic and holy number, look at all the coincidences on September 11th and how often the number '11' shows up there in that date, know that 11 years prior to that event George Bush's father George H. W Bush was making a speech calling for a 'New World Order' and know that eleven years from September 11th 2001 leads you right into the controversial date of 2012. Then look at all the controversy surrounding Denver International Airport, and know that on the gravestone seal of it's inauguration has the Masonic 'American' Symbol right on it above the words 'New World Airport Commission'

If you really want to chop all of that up to coincidence or a hoax be my guest, if not I concur with Kyle and suggest that everyone here reads Dr. Tom Horn's 'Apollyon Rising 2012' with an open mind and open heart. Realize we're all in this game together, and instead of suggesting that the other side is completely wrong maybe it is time that we all come together and place forth what we know so that we can put on the table and prepare for what happens in 2012, rule out all the complete
'hogwash' such as the galactic alignment and other outrageous claims that were made and figure out exactly what is going to happen. There's no doubt that somehow someway all of our lives will forever change in 2012, if we band together now and figure out what it is how/before that happens we won't be blindsided and will all shape our future and destiny together.

I think thats all Kyle was really trying to say….he never meant it as an attack his fellow brothers faces the same game and deception that he does. Don't close your minds 100% either way, maybe it is all a hoax then again maybe it's not the only thing that will put those fears to rest finally is when the clock strikes the new year of 2013.

Greg Gustafson

how is 'Eris' the 10th planet found in our solar system not the mythical "planet x' or Niburu we've all be hearing so much about?

There are two 'Planet Xs': the scientific hypothesis, and the doomsday stories.

The hypothesis was "hey, guys, Uranus and Neptune's orbits seem a bit funny, it's like there is something tugging at them from behind. We can work out how big this something would be, and how far away it is, but until we find such an object we'll just give it a placeholder name". As Juju mentioned, the first candidate object to be found was Pluto, but it was found to be much too small and insignificant to be causing an apparent inconsistency in the orbits of the outer planets.

As time went on and nothing else was found, new lines of testing could be done to figure out why the orbits weren't quite right, including flybys from the Voyager spacecraft - if the mass of Uranus and Neptune were correct, then we'd know where Voyager would be 'spat out' after it had passed them and received a bit of a boost from gravity, all while Voyager was taking up close and personal measurements of the planets. Turns out that Voyager measured the mass of Neptune differently to what we had determined it to be from Earth. If you use the new measurements of mass to work out the orbits and influences it would have on Uranus' orbit, you find that there is no longer a need for to look for a large planet tugging on Uranus and Neptune, it was just Neptune tugging on Uranus and us not having the correct maths to show it.

But of course that doesn't leave the idea of 'something being out there', we don't conclude there is nothing else worth looking at beyond Neptune, and there are similarly hypothesis for large objects to reside as far out as the Oort cloud or just beyond. Importantly however, is that there is no direct evidence for these objects to exist, the inferred evidence for there existence is debatable, and so they continue to be mentioned as ideas, not as facts.

Of course proponents will ignore that completely and declare anything and everything to be fact, without doing the slightest bit of research to see if they are wrong. To use Eris as the example, we know it's orbit, we know it's size, we know where it is at any given point in time, and we know that it cannot and does not wander through the solar system threatening life on Earth every 3600 years, so how can it be 'Nibiru'? The only likeliness it has to Nibiru is that both are claimed to be objects in space. Though Eris has plenty of evidence to actually confirm it exists in space, whereas Nibiru has none.

Can I ask you a question, did you know that Building 7 went down on 09/11/01? Just answer that honestly please, and if so what do you think it was that knocked it down?

It was unsafe to leave it standing with the amount of damage it had sustained. More to the point, it is entirely unconnected to 2012 unless you can find some direct, testable evidence to link the two. If I've read your comment right, your link between the two is "9/11 was a disaster but it turned out to be a hoax, 2012 is a hoax but may well turn out to be a disaster." If that is your line of thought, then I have to say it's absurd.

If you haven't gotten over to my post yet the point I was trying to make is that there is something big going down

The point I've tried to make, twice, is that until you define this 'something', then said 'something' cannot be tested to see if its 'going down'. If it can't be tested, then it can't be declared as fact that 'something big is going down'. That is the point. Where do you stand? Do you conclude that something will go down, something will happen, something is certain, or do you simply believe that something will happen?

If you believe something will happen, believe away, your choice. If you assert something will happen, you best be prepared to show some strong evidence in support.

A dialog between two parties is a-ok, but it won't get anywhere if the terms of why they're talking is fuzzy and ill-defined.

…and I think I'm confused on something, how is 'Eris' the 10th planet found in our solar system not the mythical "planet x' or Niburu

Because it isn't even a planet. It is a dwarf planet. However, this designation had not been made in 2005, but it was being debated up to the IAU resolution in 2006, and continues to be "debated" by some.

Are you familiar with prevailing Nibiru claims? If so, you should realize that claims about its structure vary anywhere from several Earth-masses to roughly on par with Jupiter. Some even claim it is a brown dwarf, which would put it at several Jupiter-masses. Also, the claimed orbital period of 3,600 years (going back to the late Zecharia Sitchin) would demand an orbital eccentricity of 0.996 (almost a straight line and effectively impossible for a planet).

Eris, on the other hand, is tiny (about 2600 km in diameter) and has an eccentricity of about 0.44.

"Planet X" is a generic designation used by astronomers for any hypothetical planetary body. Pluto was once "Planet X." After a planet is discovered, it isn't Planet X anymore.

"Nibiru" is not a scientific curiosity. It is a myth. In an ancient context, it meant many things, which we have discussed on this very board.

I think it a 10th planet was discovered then we'd have to go buy what people in previous histories that spoke of a 'tenth planet'

If you're referring to supposed ancient peoples knowing about a "tenth planet," then you need to go here. They didn't.

their claims might be accurate considering we don't have anything else to go by

They didn't make any claims of that nature.

given you guys's track record of thoroughness and picking up on stuff I don't see right away I may just be wrong to make that assumption :)

Yep.

…we don’t stand a chance of pulling through whatever’s coming alive.

You erroneously assume that something unusually horrible is "coming" at all. There is always something in the future, but there's no reason to think there will be anything exceptional about 2012.

I never meant to personally assault or take anyone from there down more…

I doubt anyone at 2012Hoax feels "taken down" by you. No offense, but your arguments aren't compelling enough for that.

I should have worded things better and approached things better as opposed to just ‘attacking’ claims made on that website…

No, actually, the problem is that you didn't attack any claims, but instead focused on Bill as a person. Moreover, in order to attack the "claims" made at 2012Hoax, you're going to have to attack a large body of long-standing scientific evidence and theory.

The truth to this matter is there are two sides to the argument…

Well, there really isn't an argument. There's just one side that generally accepts science and reason, and one side that generally ignores both. Which side are you on?

There’s so much info out there about 2012 it really is tough to separate fact from fiction…

It's really not that difficult, providing you are objective and willing to learn.

Both sides are convinced that their story is going to go down…

Kyle, I don't have a "story." In fact, many of us at 2012Hoax have repeatedly insisted that we, unlike many woo artists, do not claim to be soothsayers. I don't know what the future holds. But when you make positive claims about something, whether it be earthquakes or Nibiru or pole shifts, then you incur a burden of proof that obligates me, as a rational being, to seek evidence for those claims. Neither you nor any woo artist or conspiracy theorist I've ever encountered has seemed to even understand this, let alone meet that burden.

I will hand it to the astrologers and debunkers when it comes to claims like the ‘galactic alignment’ or the planets all lining up this way…

Astrologers are mystics. Astronomers are scientists.

But then one has to wonder, why so much speculation and controversy from so many supposed cultures and prophets over this date why come up with this big scare scenario?

That's just the thing, Kyle: no cultures had much of anything to say about 2012. It was the end of a baktun per the Meso-American Long-Count, and that's about it. The Hopi, Egyptians, Sumerians and whatever other groups are claimed to have had things to say about that year — it's all made up by woo artists. I challenge you to find one peer-reviewed historian or archaeologist who claims otherwise.

Why wouldn’t our government come out and ‘debunk’ it…

Most real scientists have better things to do than respond to pseudo-scientists, doomsayers and conspiracy theorists. However, people like David Morrison and NASA as an agency have come out against this nonsense. Sadly, when they do, they're accused of lying and covering up the "truth." When they say nothing, they're accused over covering up the "truth" with their silence. It's a Catch-22. No body of evidence or argument is ever good enough for people who so fervently want to believe in something.

How could it be possible that so many cultures and so many ‘prophets’ over time, ‘scholars’ and experts in whatever field all come to a 2012 “end” date IF everything is ‘business as usual’ and there’s no threat?

Name one scholar or expert in a given [relevant] field who supports such nonsense.

Why this big scam now?

Because 2012 is getting close, and doomsayers not unexpectedly are cashing in.

Why instead of that, is there controversy and even some claiming proof that governments across the world the United States in particular are building complex underground survival bunkers…

Claiming proof isn't the same thing as actually providing it. Jesse Ventura isn't proof of anything, except perhaps his own stupidity.

Why are things like extreme weather events rising with such ferocity?

I think you exaggerate, but storms are likely to increase in frequency over time if ocean warming continues. This is primarily a human-induced problem, not a fateful plunge toward some magical doomsday. If you feel inclined to cite many of the popular canards challenging anthropogenic climate change, just go to this website that has probably already addressed your claim:

http://www.skepticalscience.com

Maybe earthquakes or ‘significant quakes’ have only risen slightly over that time frame, but how could all these other extreme record breaking events be arriving at the same time with us expected to believe that this is natural and nothing out of the ordinary?

Because it really is nothing out of the ordinary. I wouldn't even grant that earthquakes have risen even "slightly." The numbers we see today are within the margins we've seen for more than a century, accounting for constant improvements in detection technology and huge increases in the number of monitoring stations.

…but how could all these other extreme record breaking events be arriving at the same time with us expected to believe that this is natural and nothing out of the ordinary?

What exactly is "ordinary," and what exactly do you think is "out of the ordinary?"

…personally I believe the only thing that can prove it to be real or a hoax is time.</blockquote>

Then why did you write this massive article? Why does your website even exist?

We can’t rule either 100% until the clock strikes 12/21/2012 or even 01/01/2013 depending on what you want to believe about the ‘doomsday’ scenario, and I think it is fair for everyone to agree with that same premises.

I don't agree at all. Most of the 2012 nonsense has already been debunked. What little hasn't been, if any, is probably still unaddressed only because sites like 2012Hoax haven't heard about it yet, or the claims are so incredibly insane or untestable that there's no way to address them.

Speaking of insane claims, you claim someone sent you this:

I see you realize that 911 was an inside job. That whole thing was one big Masonic ritual. I dont know how much research you have done about Freemasony and the Illuminati, but they are the power behind all the shenanigans going on right now. I dont know if you know it or not but they are obsessed with numerology. They do everything by certain numbers. Astrology as well. They also worship the number PI (3.14). Keeping this in mind, decide for yourself if the following is an incredible coincidence or if something is going on.

Do you really believe any of that? Why?

Do you think numerology actually means anything? Why?

Why did the user multiply? Why not add or divide or take the square root of both numbers beforehand? Why cut pi off at two decimal places? Even at that, 911*3.14 = 2860.54, not 2860. If one were to properly round to a whole number, it should be 2861.

"911" is not a date. It's just a number. The date was 9/11/2001, but only if you use the American convention. What if were written 11/9/2001? You'd get 119, but that wouldn't work too well. It certainly wouldn't work if you used the whole date, because you'd get 9112001 or 1192001.

Numerology is [b.s.], and anybody can make up a string of claims to support a crackpot idea. Don't be a sucker.

That’s a lot of info…

That message you received managed to span about 500 words while saying absolutely nothing.

But his tying 2012 to 09/11 couldn’t be ignored…

Except he did no such thing. Even you just wrote "09/11" instead of "911." You have to round wrongly to make the math work. It's a gimmick. Don't be a sucker.

I'm not going to go into your "9/11 was an inside job" routine, but I suggest reading a couple of websites.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7___silverstein.html
http://www.debunking911.com

Even the 2012 non believers show hints that they know tough times are coming…

Posting a message from one person who thinks World War III and "global economic depression" are imminent does not support that statement. Even if those things really are imminent, which is debatable, that has absolutely nothing to do with 2012 doomsday claims. However, I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for some doomsayer to link those hypothetical events to some nonexistent 2012 prophecy, if it hasn't been done already.

…the Powers That Be are creating a giant ‘hoax’…

The "[Powers That Be]" aren't creating the 2012 hoax. People like Patrick Geryl, John Major Jenkins and Nancy Lieder, as well as large sites like ATS and small sites like yours, and uninformed idiots on Internet forums, are the source of the hoax. It's a rather convoluted causal chain, because people like you seem to be genuinely duped regarding some of this stuff, yet the fact that you've published a website to publicize your pseudo-scientific musings and misunderstandings is another cog in the [b.s.] machine, so to speak. I don't think you're anywhere close to malicious like some 2012ers, but sometimes gullibility can be almost just as bad.

…but at the same time they’re secretly building complex underground survival bunkers…

Continuing to repeat a claim does not make it true.

I hope this post is read by each and every single person in America, so that collectively we can come together and figure out EXACTLY what’s going on and what they’re planning for all of us.

You have provided no evidence that anything unusual is going on or that anyone is "planning" something "for all of us." Incidentally, my response to you on the 2012Hoax forum included a direct request for the evidence that has led to think as you do. In this long article you have posted, which I put at around 2,000 words, you've provided not one scrap of evidence for anything you've claimed. You also haven't defined anything. Even if we were having unusually numerous large earthquakes and storms, what would it mean? What would it have to do with 9/11 or 2012 doom claims?

…clearly you guys have a stellar argument and know things that some of us wouldn’t know…

We don't have "a stellar argument." We have numerous arguments based on rock-solid evidence, logic and science that completely eviscerate every 2012 claim we know about.

…and vice versa we may be picking up on things that you are currently missing right now.

Name something.

Something’s going on…

Like what? Nebulous assertion is nebulous.

…the time’s we live in are unprecedented let’s figure out why before the ‘SHTF’

I'm not sure I buy the biblical idea that there's nothing new under the Sun, but very little is new. Our time on this blue hunk of space rock has its unique properties, as every time before us has had. That's not a bad thing, in my opinion.

However, you seem to think there's something unusually, mysteriously nefarious going on in today's world. Like so many of your mind-set, you can't really seem to define what you think this "thing" is, but you're afraid of it anyway. Unfortunately, you seem to want others to be afraid of it, too, and that's my biggest problem with websites like yours. You purport to have an interest in truth and exploring "both sides," but you don't seem to be conducting much research outside of websites that already agree with your vague belief in an impending bad something.

Have a look at the Stories section at 2012Hoax, and think about some of those frightened folks the next time you post an article about some speculative fantasy nonsense that you heard about from Jesse Ventura or read on another site like this.

If you haven't gotten over to my post yet the point I was trying to make is that there is something big going down, much as you guys see 2012 as a giant 'hoax' I see 09/11/2001 as a giant hoax and its directly related to 2012 but in a reverse sort of way, back then we thought it was real it turned out to be fake and our government was probably behind it now adays seemingly we know of the incoming 'danger' but we're thinking it's going to go down as a hoax or fake when it could very well turn up as the mass cataclystic event people like myself and other 'believers' think will happen, potentially wiping out a massive amount of Earth's population.

It's why I want to come together with you guess to share the knowledge we both have so that maybe we can really once and for all put the 'doomsday' to rest. I think there's a lot going on behind closed doors we may not be aware of, it never could hurt to atleast be aware of them

You saying that there is a funny feeling in your stomach or that a book can be read to mean something relevant, or your general distrust of the government, whatever it may be it is only a belief you have, a feeling that you share and are entitled to share, but a feeling that cannot be stated as fact until there is solid evidence that has only one conclusion.

Using earthquakes as the example, you can see that there is no evidence for a drastic increases of activity. We can both agree on that with the evidence we have at hand, and we can obviously both agree that earthquakes in massively populated areas will cause problems for human life. Where then does 2012 come into it at all? Earthquakes statistically happen every day, large earthquakes statistically kill people. Statistically, an earthquake is likely kill people in 2012. And in 2013. And in 2014. There is nothing special about 2012 just because someone phrases it as a prediction, rather than a statistic or probability.

What I'm saying is to use that line of thought for everything, to get a claim written down and then to test it as fully as possible. I'm not sure however that you have a claim. I think you have a feeling. If you want to assert 'something is going on', then say what that something is, how it might be going on, how we could test it, what results we'd expect to see vs what results we do then find… it's boring most of the time, but that's science. Everything else is an opinion.

One piece, or theme perhaps of the article did catch my eye:

Why instead of that, is there controversy […]

Because people will do anything they can to make controversy - knowingly or not.

Please understand I'm not 'jumping to conclusions' Ive studied 2012 to years now, you guys have been able to pick up on things that I have not been able to hence why I'm grateful for the exchange I've had with this website I've learned a lot from you guys and I'm hoping somehow someway I can return the favor to all of you

And as far as the chart goes, I was absolutely 100% wrong and jumped to a conclusion. Out of the three that left responses it was Bob's comment I found the best as he completely pointed out something I was missing, population rates. If population has increased but the same amount of significant quakes have stayed the same obviously deaths are going to jump up there's no other way around it. whoever made that chart was indeed trying to scare the hell out of people and I fell for it, pounced way too early on it please understand I do have a '2012 pro' bias and that clearly got in the way today. Please open up your minds though and read that wakeup call, I feel that is probably the best post I have put on my website to date and it wouldn't have happened if I didn't go off the handle like I did

I think we all need to work together to figure out what's going on.

That's the issue, that you think something is going on in the first place, and then conclude that something is going on, but based on dubious evidence or flat out falsehoods.

You seem to jump straight to the conclusion without gathering the evidence and looking through endless amounts of it, and what evidence you're blown away by consists of interpretations of numbers in the Bible, a book that almost by definition 4 or 5 billion people on the planet don't believe is all that important, or indeed is a book from the wrong religion entirely.

We know you're capable of seeing how flawed the arguments of galactic alignments and so on are, but will you extend that line of thinking to Earthquakes for example, as people here have mentioned? Will you extend skeptical, rational thought the each and every claim, or just the 'fringe theories' you personally didn't really believe in to begin with, and leave your favourites untouched?

And that's but a handful of thoughts on the matter, I might be back later on.

also I apologize for what I came out with that was wrong, let me know of anything else you don't like there more than anything I think it was a miscommunication I came at this all wrong. I just want to get people to open up their eyes to things they may not have seen before, I think we're all here to learn from each other and help one another out if we can't do that then mankind's probably screwed

I just wanted to make a note to you all I took that post off of my website because I just re-read it and saw how it was coming across in an 'attacking' fashion.

Kyle, that's nice and all, and I'm sure Bill will be glad to not have his name besmirched on your site, but it wasn't just the tone of your article that bothered me. It's the fact that much of what you posted was just completely wrong, as I outlined in the first post of this thread. Your second article was also completely wrong, as several people from this site explained to you in comments.

my biggest concern now is that I still see potential danger on the horizon and times may get bumpy up ahead

What "potential danger," and why do you think so?

but something is clearly out of the ordinary.

What exactly do you think is "out of the ordinary?"

get a better idea for what exactly is coming. Alls I know for certain is something clearly is amiss

What do you think is coming, and how do you "know for certain" that "something clearly is amiss?" What evidence has led you to these conclusions?

I still see potential danger on the horizon and times may get bumpy up ahead it may not be as bad as I once thought but something is clearly out of the ordinary. We're all in this together, I think we should all put everything that we know on the table to debunk what really isn't going to happen and get a better idea for what exactly is coming.

I don't know what potential danger you see. Can you specify?

Good Luck!

I just wanted to make a note to you all I took that post off of my website because I just re-read it and saw how it was coming across in an 'attacking' fashion. That was not at all what I was trying to do, I'm currently working on a 'World Wide Wakeup Post' where I am going to come out and apologize for jumping to conclusions so quickly and give Bill a well deserved apology.

I hope you guys understand I don't at all view you as the enemy, am very grateful that I stumbled upon this website because I have learned much about 2012 that is bogus information I once thought was real, my biggest concern now is that I still see potential danger on the horizon and times may get bumpy up ahead it may not be as bad as I once thought but something is clearly out of the ordinary. We're all in this together, I think we should all put everything that we know on the table to debunk what really isn't going to happen and get a better idea for what exactly is coming. Alls I know for certain is something clearly is amiss, and I really hope everyone that's reading this tunes into the next worldwide wakeup call "2012 Believers, Skeptics, Debunkers and 'Prophets' Listen Up"

Sorry Kyle, but you ARE guilty of using cherry-picked data.

As JS says, the USGS data only includes selected earthquakes of historical interest. This is bound to include a bias towards recent events more easily remembered and more extensively reported on. Then some more filtering has gone on by the compiler of the graph who leaves out inconvenient data such as 1957 and earthquakes over magnitude 8.0.

So your data is not, as you suggest, straight off USGS. It comes from Reality Slap Now http://realityslapnow.com/2010/12/reality-slap-when-did-conspiracy-theories-turn-into-facts/ who, in turn, take it from the Horizon Project website: http://www.thehorizonproject.com/earthquakes.cfm

What do these websites have in common with yours?
They all have the agenda 'don't try to tell me things aren't getting worse'. Due to this, I don't think people would consider them to be sources of reliable data.

So why don't we have a look at the original USGS data: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/year/eqstats.php
Taking data for ALL earthquakes of magnitude 6.0 and over, we find 1,752 such events in the 11 years from 2000 to 2010. The average per year is 159.
From the same page, the historical average per year (since 1900) is… 150.
There we are. Slightly above average and nothing like the grossly distorted picture painted by your graph.

When I am confronted by the sort of claims you seem to embrace, I adopt the scientific method: 'How can I show this to be wrong?' Maybe you should do the same and you wouldn't be so easily taken in.

However, the Horizon Team isn't very scientific (exception for Dr. Brooks Agnew, scientist)

Not so fast. He's heading a team on a polar expedition to investigate whether the Earth is hollow.
http://www.phoenixsciencefoundation.org/APEX.htm

Of course if that was my only argument it'd fall foul of the association fallacy, I'd instead have to wonder why their Earthquake data that bikenbeer mentions comes from the Historic World Earthquake results, which only lists "Selected earthquakes of general historic interest", as oppose to, shoot I don't know, maybe umpteen other Earthquake catalogs that aren't prejudiced to those that are "historically interesting"?

A bit of framing, a bit of confirmation bias, some illusory correlation perhaps… all in a days work for someone with a conclusion in search for some evidence.

The earthquake plot shown by him is interesting. The use in the heading of the phrase "Deadly & Destructive Earthquakes…" in a page purporting to come from a scientific website immediately caused my baloney detectors to switch on.

Too much noise for nothing. "Deadly & Destructive Earthquakes" happen almost every year. I don't know why he still uses those earthquakes as a prove for 2012.

The Horizon Project is another woo site, not unlike the infamous Institute For Human Continiuity viral site for publicising the movie '2012'.

I never saw this one. And it's pretty scarry. And he is "featured" by Histerya Channel, Amazon, SciFi, ABC, Paramount and others. You know, those 2012 channels. But I'm thinking if they are 'really' featured by those channels.
However, the Horizon Team isn't very scientific (exception for Dr. Brooks Agnew, scientist): Brent Miller, programmer, and Michael Tsarion, "researcher".

A quote about Episode 01:

Episode 01 of The Horizon Project begins with a frightening bang. Newly discovered scientific evidence shows that the world as we know it is about to come to an unexpected end; however, knowing what's coming over the horizon is only the tip of the iceberg; understanding WHY presents a picture far greater than you could have imagined.

I'm "so" curious! Haha!

The earthquake plot shown by him is interesting. The use in the heading of the phrase "Deadly & Destructive Earthquakes…" in a page purporting to come from a scientific website immediately caused my baloney detectors to switch on. This graph was obviously compiled not by the USGS but by somebody with the same 'don't try to tell me things aren't getting worse' agenda as Kyle. He claims to have taken it from the Reality Slap Now website here, but even that isn't the original.
A bit more detective work led me to the Horizon Project website, which shows what does look like the original here.
The Horizon Project is another woo site, not unlike the infamous Institute For Human Continiuity viral site for publicising the movie '2012'. Here is a taster:

In Episode 01, The Horizon Project Research Team will identify some of the signs that are scattered all over our planet and reveal a shocking truth!
"The Horizon Project's charter is to gather and cross-check vast amounts of knowledge in many dozen specialized fields from scientists and researchers around the globe in addition to studying hundreds of historical documents spanning back to the dawn of history."

Yes, we've heard it all before (yawn).

In point of fact, I did kind of drop out in the middle of that discussion. I'm in the middle of a large project at work (which I've hinted at a few times) which is taking up more of my discretionary time. Spending time here, or in a debate with Kyle takes time away from work, or my family, or (worst of all) sleep. So, recently, work has been demanding a bigger slice of the "Bill Hudson Pie-Chart of Time", and something had to give.

However, I'm a bit taken aback by the rather accusatory tone of Kyle's recent offerings. Because of those posts, I've decided not to continue engaging him in any email exchanges. He has my email if he cares to ask me directly about any of the things he has accused me of, otherwise, I think that Jim's and JuJu's responses are sufficient to stand in the stead of any direct response by myself.

Interesting how in your recent posts, you alternate between accusing Bill Hudson (founder of 2012Hoax) of dishonesty, and telling everyone that he’s a nice guy whom you respect.

By the way, I checked the link given in the graph you showed:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/world/historical.php .

There’s no such graph at that link, and the data given by USGS at that link is NOT for earthquakes of magnitudes 6 to 8 — it’s for smaller quakes as well. In fact, there seems to be no such data given on any page at USGS. There is, however, a page for earthquakes of mags 6 and over:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/historical_mag_big.php .

If you look through the data given on that page, you’ll see that in the year 1957 alone, there were 12 earthquakes, all of them of mag 7+. Interestingly enough, the data for that year have been left out of the graph you show. I wonder why?

Also interesting is that of the 6 earthquakes with mags of 9+, three occurred between 1952 and 1964, but only one has occurred since (in 2004). Could that inconvenient fact explain why the source of your graph didn’t include quakes with mags over 8?

Please note, though, that USGS states that the data shown on pages mentioned above are for “SELECTED earthquakes of general historic interest”. That description suggests that not all earthquakes are included in the list. Another convenient omission by your source?

In summary, Kyle, you’ve been had. Just as you were had by the perpetrators of the “Galactic Alignment” nonsense, which of all “2012″ claims is the one that can most easily be disproved with a few hours of online research.

Perhaps instead of devoting yourself to incoherent attacks against Bill Hudson, you should do your homework.

"Tenth Planet"

The "tenth planet" is Eris, a dwarf planet just under 1/3 larger than Pluto. It was discovered in 2005 by Mike Brown. This is precisely what Kyle's link refers to. Why he thinks Astrogeek or anyone else here ignores this is anyone's guess.

Bunkers

Kyle claims, "[Bill] always seemed to have some answer…until I brought up things like the underground bunkers…." In point of fact, Bill (Astrogeek) directly responded to Kyle's claims about bunkers. He wrote:

On the whole 'Denver International Airport' thing… I've seen the show. I'm not convinced. This is one of those things that seems to take off from some fringe conspiracy theory and grows legs in popular culture. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no evidence of extensive underground structures at DIA other than those expected for a structure of that size and function. The 'expected underground structures' can be quite extensive though. An airport requires many miles of underground service tunnels for electrical, water, sewer, data, etc.

Other than the word of one contractor who sells the things, the show only presented rumor and assertion that the bunkers exist.

The other place that the show went was to an undisclosed location that they spotted on google earth. I don't know if you caught what the security guard told the people at the gate… he said that they had to be cleared by 'northrup security'. Northrup is a defense contractor. They build (among other things) airplanes, including the F15E eagle. So, it appears that the show visited a test and development site for Northrup.

In the age of satellites, I would expect the planes that Nortrup was working on to be hidden underground.

Also, I'm curious about the claimed connection between DIA and Mt. Cheyenne. Why would they build tunnels or other structures to DIA (over 40 miles away as the crow flies) when Fort Carson Army Air Field is right next to Cheyenne? I keep hearing these ideas that such-and-such a mountain is a survival complex, when really it's a secured facility. Yes, it has the ability to operate independently of the rest of the U.S. for extended periods of time, but that's because it is a nuclear command and control facility.

Kyle has just conveniently ignored everything Bill said on this matter. You can view the conversation here: http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-276898/ .

Solar Flares

2012hoax.org has an entire page on solar flares, which offers the following:

Should such an event occur today, there would be massive disruption in electrical grids, possibly long term. What is needed is to beef up our early warning system, and to stockpile spares of critical components. However, the report paints a worst-case scenario where no warning is given, and the electrical grid operators do not have time to take precautions.

Certain people, such as Kyle, display a marked inability to distinguish between solar maximum (which we experience roughly every 11 years, the last one having occurred in 2001 and next due in 2013) and a particular solar storm. Solar storms aren't predicted years or months ahead of time. All we can do is anticipate the next solar maximum and acknowledge that a particular time frame will see an increased likelihood of severe solar weather. Again, this happens every 11 years. The 2013 maximum is currently projected to be "below average in intensity" by the Space Weather Prediction Center of NOAA. Does Kyle know something that solar scientists at NASA, NOAA and around the world don't know? I doubt it.

Hole in Magnetosphere

As for that "giant hole" in the magnetosphere, the same page that deals with solar flares deals with that also.

Isn't it funny how Kyle makes so many complaints and accusations, but can't be bothered to consider answers to his points that have been right in front of him all this time? I speculate that he removed the link to 2012Hoax.org not because of any deficiency in the information here, but because this website strongly challenges the veracity of his own.