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I think the mayans were just lazy and stopped making it or they took a break and their civilization coincidentally died. What do you think? They would continue it forever? They have far more better things to do than waste their lives and their time on making that stupid calendar. ☺
Hi Owina;
The idea that the calendar 'ends' in 2012 is a modern misconception. The Maya did not 'end' their calender in 2012 any more than our calendar 'ended' on 12/31/1999.
Another bit that I just ran across recently: The "Mayan" calendar may not be "Mayan" at all. The Maya probably inherited the calendar from a previous culture called the Olmecs. So all of this stuff about how important such and such a date was to the Maya could be all completely bogus.
Just as the owners of this website, I too have done some research on this topic and would like to share my findings.
It's important that we all get together and expose this theory as the Hoax it is..
The date 2012 seems to be based upon false Western interpretations of the Mayan calendar starting with José Arguelles, the man who first introduced the date December 21, 2012 into mass consciousness with his book “The Mayan Factor” published back in the 1987’s. Jose Argüelles claimed he had intergalactic experiences which led him to research the Mayan calendar. He claims that he is “the chosen one” that would sway the world into world peace before the year 1995 by convincing civilization to go back to using a cosmic calendar with a 28 day cycle, as the Mayan’s used centuries ago. To Argüelles, "the irregular 12-month [Gregorian] calendar and artificial, mechanized 60-minute hour" is a construct that artificially regulates human affairs, and is out-of-step with the natural "synchronic order". He proposes the universal abandonment of the Gregorian calendar and its replacement with his own Argüelles' thirteen-moon calendar, in order to "get the human race back on course" by the adoption of "his” calendar of perfect harmony so the human race could straighten its mind out again.
Argüelles' also claims that he believes that our higher powers are of Alien descent and the Mayan people were beamed here from another galaxy and that the rulers of the galaxy have made it clear to him that in order for our planet to survive, he must convince civilization to reconnect to the cosmos and achieve perfect harmony.( sounds a lot like a Movie I just watched. with Will Smith)
After he pubished his book in 1987, several others jumped on the band wagon and began to use this outrageous theory to benefit their own selfish agendas. Argüelles fabricated theory has led an extreme new age movement that has backfired with each organization putting their agenda to the forefront. José Arguelles has even gone as far as bringing his 28 day calendar world peace theory to the UN and then tried to sue the UN when they declined his proposal whereupon he declared the UN an enemy of the biosphere.
I believe that José Arguelles is in part of the appeal of these earth religions to set a worldwide panic on Earth in order to save ourselves from self destruction. It’s fact that he was instrumental in achieving World Earth Day 30 years ago. I am all for reconnecting to earth and taking the necessary steps to stop self-destruction as we see it, but I am appalled at his attempt to throw the world into such a panic that has brought out every nutcase to claim the end of the world in 2012. Does Jose Argüelles' not realize that such a fabricated story could very well lead to a massive catastrophic event, like pushing North Korea into sending their nuclear bomb? Fabrications as such can merely be the breaking point to cause an extremist leader like that of North Korea to use 2012 as the deadline to launch.
The Mayan Calendar is just that, a Calendar or should I say a series of calendars. The Maya had several respective calendars. One of these was a ritual calendar, known as the Tzolkin, composed of 260 days. It contained 13 "months" of 20 days each, the months being named after 13 gods while the twenty days were numbered from 0 to 19. Theory is that this calendar is based on the crops. From planting to harvest is approximately 260 days. The second calendar was a 365-day civil calendar called the Haab. This calendar consisted of 18 months, named after religious events, each with 20 days (again numbered 0 to 19) and a short "month" of only 5 days that was called the Wayeb. The Wayeb was considered an unlucky period and Landa wrote in his classic text that the Maya did not wash, comb their hair or do any hard work during these five days.( sounds like depression to me) . Anyone born during these days would have bad luck and remain poor and unhappy all their lives
Because the two calendars were based on 260 days and 365 days respectively, the whole cycle would repeat itself every 52 Haab' years exactly. This period was known as a Calendar Round. The end of the Calendar Round was a period of unrest and bad luck among the Maya, as they waited in expectation to see if the gods would grant them another cycle of 52 years. A 584-day Venus cycle was also maintained, which tracked the heliacal risings of Venus as the morning and evening stars. Many events in this cycle were seen as being astrologically inauspicious and baleful, and occasionally warfare was astrologically timed to coincide with stages in this cycle. It is believed that Maya rulers planned for wars to begin when Venus rose.
The Mayan people were established as great agricultural civilization and tied many of their weather predictions to account on solar activity which was pertinent to their survival. Many of their details surrounding the calendar were significant to astronomy as it is today. Just like the present day farmers Almanacs, the Mayan Calendar recorded weather, how much rain had fallen etc, etc. and related each years’ events to the positioning of the solar system
There is no doubt that the Maya people were great astronomers and kept track of the solar and lunar years, eclipses and the cycles of visible planets, but It’s no different from today as we have thousands of astronomers watching and recording the solar system, and can predict where each planet will be 20,000 years from now with technology that extends beyond the naked eye. There is no recorded evidence that the Mayan’s predicted the end of the world. Nor do the Mayan people teach this. The convergence I see here is the apocalyptic expectations, if you will, along with the fact that the environment is in the front of many people's minds these days is in part of the appeal of these earth religions to set a panic that we need to reconnect with the Earth in order to save ourselves.
Also I think that it is important to mention that many of the Mayan’s writings were destroyed and only three books remain in existence today. When the Spaniards came across the Mayans, they considered them to have pagan practices associated with the devil. Because of that, they began to destroy most of the Mayan writings of their civilization most notably under the direction of Bishop Diego de Landa. One Catholic, however, intervened and prevented the remaining writings from being destroyed which included the Mayan Calendar. What their records actually were intended to explain is unknown and has been subject to a lot of debate.
According to many scholars, including the astronomer Philip Plait, they clearly state that the Mayan calendar does not end in 2012 at all, that it is like the odometer on your car, as each section of the odometer reaches 9 and then clicks over to 0, the next number to it starts a new cycle, so that when all the numbers again reach 0 all the way across the odometer - the last number will change from 1 to 2 and the new cycle starts all over again. This roll over is exactly what put the world in panic in 1999 when it was thought that the world would go into chaos because we were not prepared to handle the roll over to 2000. (well as you well know that did not happen) but a great many cashed in on the panic)
Sandra Noble, executive director of the Mesoamerican research organization FAMSI, stated in a recent article, that the portrayal of December 2012 as a doomsday or cosmic-shift event to be "a complete fabrication. I tend to agree with her as there is no evidence to support this theory anywhere. Since Jose Argüelles' book, which was a best seller, the subject has attracted doomsayers, end-of-the-world armegeddonists, occultists, and just plain misinformed kooks. Many of these websites exist not to give credible and real information but to make money as most websites do by attracting sponsors.
Everyone now has their own interpretation of the 2012 date and University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says “the 2012 phenomenon comes from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own." The fanatics have really had a hay day with this one, whether it is the ones that say 2012 will be the day that Christ returns to earth or the ones that say it will be the day the world ends, they all are taking full advantage of a seed that was planted by José Arguelles who claims to be an Extraterrestrial Prophet trying to bring world peace and harmony to earth with a new calendar.
Experts all agree that the information Jose Argüelles has published about the Mayan Calendar is incorrect. There is wide criticism with Jose as his book is not relative to what the Mayans themselves have ever publicly taught throughout history. Jose Argüelles was instrumental in the New Age Movement and is very Pro Alien. His beliefs about the cosmic calendar are that all our world troubles are all associated with the fact that we live by a more modern mechanical time calendar. This theory alone is so far from the truth, as evidence clearly states that the Mayan people were not in perfect harmony using their so called cosmic calendar. The Mayans suffered the same trial and tribulations as we suffer today. They were involved with warfare, disease, economic troubles. They were conquered by the Spanish. They suffered famine, droughts, and eventually ceased to carry on as a civilization.
Regarding internet hype, my best advice is to avoid the internet when researching 2012.There are too many websites that lead people into false acceptance. I do however recommend you watch some of Jose Argüelles you tube videos. You will then see for yourself what a nut case he is.
Argüelles is out to sell books, and has succeeded to pick a topic that attracted millions of readers. Others have seen his success in writing a fabricated story book and now want to cash in on the profits to be made. The internet is now the number one place to make money and if you have a website that attracts millions of readers you got yourself a cash cow.
Note; (The bible warns of false prophets claiming they have been chosen to bring world peace) they call these people the antichrist.
So rest assure that nothing is going to happen on December 21 2012, unless you want to book a huge Event and make some money…get drunk and wake up on December 23 with a huge hangover.
Did you perhaps have a question or statement attached to that link? Otherwise, what exactly are people supposed to comment on? The return of the Annunaki and all the other crap? I didn't have time to watch the video, but would I be wrong in guessing that it is some kind of New age proclamation?
Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan
The Anunnaki — as in the race of aliens who genetically engineered humans for slave labor, per Zecharia Sitchin. Their home world is Nibiru.
Or so the fantasy goes. DD, SOS.
Aliens who live on rogue planets: Because we all know that traveling through space without a stable atmosphere, on a giant planet that collides with Asteroids and Comets on a daily basis is possible for life to flourish.
I hope that you can spot the sarcasm.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
Not so quick. Not ALL experts agree. You should never make a statement like that where you say ALL, or EVERYONE because it is not true. Truth lies within astronomy. Many "experts" agree that something may actually happen around 2012 but the human race will survive and life will go on. No, the world probably won't end but you can't dismiss changes that just might make you think it is. So, do a bit more research and don't present yourself as the sole expert and speak as such.
Hello Hollowpoint,
If it's possible to make progress here, we're more likely to make it by recognizing that Amen4U would have been better off not saying things like "all experts", and you would have been better off not accusing him/her of presenting himself/herself as "the sole expert".
If we can continue from there, could you do us the favor of elaborating on these points that you made?
Please note that in the last few weeks, we at 2012Hoax have dealt with with many similar (that is, if you'll pardon me, nebulous) claims. Therefore, to save everyone time, we'd appreciate it if you reviewed this thread before replying.
Lastly, although I assume you were addressing Amen4U directly when you said
So, do a bit more research…
we would be happy to have you examine the links at the left-hand side of this page, and tell us what topics we may have overlooked or treated inadequately.
Thanks.
"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain
Yep. "Experts". People with no training or really knowledge at all.
It's funny, because the 2012 date is only popular due to two facts.
1) The Mayan Calendar doing it's turnover at that point.
2) One piece of Mayan documentation mentioning it.
The problem with both is the fact 1) is largely blown out of it's own scope of realism. People are so fixated on it… and then forget the calendar continues WELL beyond it. WELL, WELL beyond it.
And 2) If 2012 was so important to the Mayan Civilization, why is it only mentioned once and, for that matter, not in an important manner?
If 2012 was such a life-changing event to the Mayan's, why isn't there more information on it? Why do the modern-day Mayan's not really care about it other than giving it the same acknowledgment as the Gregorian Calendar's New Years turnover?
These "experts" are lying 99% of the time. The very moment ANY of them mention the Mayan's in any manner, they're pulling crap out of their ass. The only importance 2012 has to them is it's their effective New Years. That's it. Nothing more.
And while the 4th Monument or whatever has damaged information about 2012, it very likely had to do with their old, defunct godly beliefs. Likely along the lines that the turnover for their calendar was a point to where they should celebrate and make offerings to said defunct deities at this point. Something 'spiritual', but nothing like the New Age folks would like you to believe.
The fact of the matter is, if 2012 was nearly as important to the Mayans as people would like you to believe, why is it only briefly mentioned once in their entire collective history? Why do the modern day Mayans just roll their eyes about all the claims?
When it comes down to it, what 2012 IS? Is their New Years to our Gregorian Calendar. What it MIGHT have also been was a celebration to their deities for the turn over, probably involving more virgin sacrifices and blood drinking. Who the hell knows. Hell, it might have even signified one of their deities would visit at this point and then go away, seeing as their calendars, again, go WELL beyond 2012.
Hard for the world to end or transform if the same system was going on for generations beyond the apparent 'end point'.
Fact is, I'm pretty sure the modern day Mayan culture doesn't even believe in the all the same deities or practices as the ancient Mayans. I mean, I'd be a little embarrassed over their claims these days. Coughfrogcarryingtheearthonit'sbackonalilipadcough. Coughsacrificingvirginsanddrinkingtheirbloodtobecomeclosertoyourdeitiescough.
All these Mayan Doomsday Speakers really have less than no knowledge of the true culture. This way THE EXPERTS, not "experts", facepalm repeatedly. 2012 really isn't THAT significant of a date to them. Throw a party move the crap on.
Oh, and the Mayans themselves are sick and tired of 2012 as it is. I wouldn't be surprised if the parties have been canceled on account of stupidity.
So, let's make a breaking ground here.
1) Actual Mayan historians and researches, true experts, are mind-boggled at where people get their information from.
2) The Mayan themselves are dumbstruck as to the claims of 2012 and what their calendar means.
3) The "Experts" are convinced it's doomsday and make all sorts of ludicrous connections.
So, you have a choice. You either believe groups 1 and 2, the people who have researched and actually sat down with the Mayans, and THE ACTUAL PEOPLE IN QUESTION, or you believe in group 3.
If you believe in group 3… what the HELL is wrong with you?
Ugh. Less "Mayan's" and more "Mayans". Sorry for the fail grammar.
I think actually when referring to the people, it should be "Maya" as in "… the Maya …", or so I've been told.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
I have also been reading alot on this subject and may other of the senerios that have come form this mayans calaendar. Its rather amusing reading all these theroies. But thats just what they are nothing more nothing less. Anyone can guess the day the world will end. But with out the proof or the evidence thats all it will be. Mayans love them to death but dude even they are going were the heck are you people getting your info. I find it hard to believe that people would prey on the fears of others to make a buck. OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH wait has that not been done through out history. As i said in my first posting which i apparently named mark cause i am a noob and cant read simple directions lol =P. " EVERY living thing on this planet has to die some time. Whats the point in worrying about it you will just give yourself a storke or heartattack. Live life to the fullest." Now this does not mean go out and do something crazy dangerous. But i mean don't go through life wondering dude why did i not ask so and so out. Live it to the fullest. Ever since the dawn of time since human History. " We have all been in danger form getting killed by a bear in the woods or wars, astroids, viruses, ECT…. Why would you care now. Live life to the fullest don't let this stuff bother you. If it ends it ends. But at least you will go with no regrets. But the one thing humans have been good at is resilence we will not go down with out a fight thats for sure.
Man we have so many scientists out there that do nothing but eat and watch the sky or learn by reading books or digging into our pasts. With them on ourside we have nothing to worry about. But like i said " Every living thing on this planet has a beginning and an end" Now if you choose to focus on the end part thats your choice but just know theres others out there like these fine people who created this website to help you debunk scammers who are just there to prey on your fears. I am no historian but i read alot. I am no astro person but i have a telescope and always wanting to learn more about it. I am no scientist But i love the feild vividly, I am nothing more than a common person who loves to learn and more i learn. the more i realize just how far people will go to make money off others. I will keep and eye on this website if you guys would like i am unempolyed have alot of time on my hands hollar at me and i will research over and over and over stuff.
Guys spread the word post on face book do what ever is needed. we need to stop all this drama. But hey i will be throwing a end of the world party just for giggles tell everyone to bring beer and food. Also hope some nersus with them ive's cause when world is still here we will have one hell of a head ache. LOL ( guys keep up with what ya do i will do what ever is needed to help just hollar)
For the people who Know i am kidding and just want to throw party ty for being here. You others Dude come on they even spelled it out for you guys. ( again the main goal of this posting is " Don't fall for these scammers don't quit your job. Don't go killing yourself over this. Live life if it were your last. Cause one thing is true when you get old you wish you did everything you could and start looking back wanting to try something that you were to scared to. Also "EVERY LIVING THING HAS A BEGINNING AND AN END how you meet that end is on you" Personally i will be going out having fun hanging out with family go talk to someone i dont know in hopes of making a new friend. My main goal is to help keep people sane with all these crazy theroies. Guys if you feel like your getting over welmed with all this hype plz plz plz don't do something crazy just talk to your parents , or spose, Or even friend, Hell if you have no one plz plz contact me i am no theropist but i am a good listener. I think everyone has a goal in life and every now and then (evil people) like to jump in the middle of the road to throw you off and on to a crazy bumpy ride. (i don't mind already made a back up email for those of you worried or need someone to talk to and or just to feel like you have friend. I am no scam artist i am just here for those who feel like there is no where else to go. even these guys are hear to help) (moc.oohay|8891.nosrohtm#moc.oohay|8891.nosrohtm) Laters (FOR PEACE AND LOVE AND KINDNESS AND WERE NO ONE IS LEFT BEHIND) MERRY CHRISTMAS And or Happy holidays and Happy New Year
It is a phycological fact that when it comes to death or the world ending people will find anyway to debunk the theory. There is scientific fact that a solar storm is going to hit in 2012. Im not saying i believe it totally but you have to be open to the theory. Your mind cant comprehend stuff like this happening to the world. All the earthquakes that have been happening is sign chalk it up to natural phenomena if you want but keep in mind that the earth has been destroyed 5 times. Im actually 50/50 on the matter but i listen to both sides of the theory. But in my opinion i hope you guys are right with it being a hoax if not were all in trouble
2012isreal i must ask how old are you? The reason this 2012 is beeing debunked is that its not the FIRST time there is a End of The World hoax going and every time the date came nothing happen.
2012isreal, there is a difference. Here science, math, and research are used to demonstrate why the world will not end in 2012 as described by all the believers. Each page has a bibliography listing its sources. If you examine the available scientific data, you come to the inescapable conclusion that we will be here on Dec. 22nd, 2012. Of course some people will die — from accidents, disease, foul play, same as any other day of any other year — but Humanity will most definitely not be snuffed out.
What do the believers have? YouTube pages showing lens flares, misinterpretations of various ancient texts, New Age claptrap, understanding of science that is woefully inadequate, and out-and-out deception. The fact that the believers are making money out of it is very telling to me.
http://www.vallentyne.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/thestupiditburns.jpg
It is a phycological fact that when it comes to death or the world ending people will find anyway to debunk the theory.
I've survived dozens of doomsdays. But, maybe I'm some kind of ninja.
It also appears that you're not exactly familiar with the meaning of the term "theory". This is more of a hypothesis, and given the "evidence" presented, I'm being generous in calling it that.
There is scientific fact that a solar storm is going to hit in 2012.
It's a reasonable expectation, seeing as solar storms (or coronal mass ejections) occur on an ongoing basis. It's a scientific fact that we've been hit by MANY solar storms this year, and every year that you've been alive. At the Sun's most sluggish phase of activity, it produces about three CME per week. During the 2000 solar maximum, it was producing about three per DAY.
Your mind cant comprehend stuff like this happening to the world.
Sure I can. I watch solar storms happen with a hydrogen-alpha filtered telescope. I'm also at a latitude where on a clear night I can easily observe the effects that they have upon the ionosphere (ie Auroras). I've also gotten some truly phenomenal ionospheric bounce on radio transmissions during such occurrences.
All the earthquakes that have been happening is sign chalk it up to natural phenomena if you want…
Yes. Part of being a doomsday prophet seems to be taking events which occur on a night-constant basis and calling them "signs". If you're scientifically illiterate, this is probably really impressive.
but keep in mind that the earth has been destroyed 5 times.
[Citation needed]
I really wish the initial post in this thread had never been made, since it's counterproductive to the purpose of this website.
As I understand them, that purpose, and this website's methods, can be summarized as follows:
Why does this website exist?
Because there are people who are badly frightened over 2012.
Why are they frightened?
Because they believe some rumor(s) they've heard about 2012.
Why do they believe rumors about 2012?
In most cases, because those rumors are superficially plausible, at least to the frightened person.
How do we allay that person's fears?
By showing that we care about him or her at least as much as the fear-mongers do. One way we do this is by taking the person's fears seriously, and giving real answers that refute the rumors.
I think everyone will see where I'm heading. If the 2012 victim is to leave this site reassured, he or she has to be convinced that we're serious people who really want to know the truth. The initial post is ruinous to that end, not only because it's flippant, but because the average victim of 2012 phobia knows that that post is demonstrably false: the Maya calendar was far from "stupid", and the ancient Maya were not lazy.
Seeing a post like that, and comparing it to the blandishments of the touchy-feely woo-woo gurus, which way is the frightened person likely to jump?
On a somewhat related subject, the article described in the following link indicates that we should be a little cautious about repeating the conventional explanation for the "collapse" of the Maya: that they over-exploited their environment, etc.
http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=2144
I'm not competent to judge the article, but one of the authors sent me some of the peer-reviewers' comments, which were highly polarized. Interestingly, one of the reviewers detected serious inaccuracies in the article, and appeared to disbelieve the authors' thesis, but still recommended that it be published (after correction of the inaccuracies, of course). That reviewer recommended publication because the article had a long-overdue review of paleopollen evidence for the "collapse", and because the scientific community needed to hear the article's thesis that that evidence had been systematically misinterpreted for decades.
The article ignited a firestorm of controversy even before publication, which was held up for about two years.
Jim;
While I agree with your summary, I have resisted the urge to censor posts in the forums, simply because I think that the best way to address misconceptions is to correct them. I have, on the very rare occasion, deleted posts that were blatant spam.
I think you have the website's goals pretty well summarized (and I think I'll steal some of your responses for the FAQ page) but I would also add this:
Why does this site have an open forum?
Primarily to allow people to ask questions, and receive answers from the authors of the website. The forum also serves the purpose of fostering a debate between the proponents of 2012 and the authors of this website.
In that vein, we have received posts from various proponents of 2012, and we have engaged those proponents for the purpose of demonstrating the intellectual (and sometimes moral) bankruptcy of their positions, and we have allowed those posts to stay up to serve that same purpose.
So, I'll propose this: You obviously feel strongly about that particular post. Write a rebuttal, and I will edit that post (As is my capability as the site administrator) and add an "editor's note" linking to your rebuttal.
That's a good article, and I think I'll add it to one of the pages on the Maya. Of course, the proponent's usual explanation for the Maya 'collapse' is that they got back on their flying saucers and headed out for Zeta Reticuli (or something equally ridiculous).
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
Hi AstroGeek,
I'm sorry if I sounded as though I thought the initial post should have been censored. Instead, I think it should stand as a cautionary example of how our frustration with the 2012 charlatans can cause us to say things that are counterproductive to our goal of helping their victims. I could easily have made a post that was equally counterproductive.
In my own case, I have to keep reminding myself (not always successfully) that although I'm sick and tired of repeating the same rebuttals, each new victim who comes to this site is probably reading those rebuttals for the first time.
I don't think the initial poster really believed that the Maya were lazy, or that their calendar was stupid; instead, he or she just made a regrettable joke. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to rebut. (But thanks for the offer.)
To me, one of this site's greatest strengths is that it's a (G-rated) open forum. Of course, that means that our mistakes are going to be open to the scrutiny of the 2012 charlatans, who never make any.
Re-reading my last post, I recognized that my use of the term "woo-woo guru" is counterproductive, so I'm going to stop.
I also wanted to say that your link on how to debate is useful. I've been guilty of some of the mistakes mentioned there.
Edit by Astrogeek: Fixed link
I think everybody has been guilty of some or all of those mistakes at various times.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
Ha, this is excatly what I told my 10 year old daughter when she came home from school asking if the world would end in 2012!, I told her the basic theory about the mayan callender and then suggested that they got bored counting all those numbers.
Hello Owina,
The Mayas never said the world was going to end it's just the end of a cycle and to celebrate they did a big party :) then another cycle begins.If you hear somebody saying about Mayan prophecies, big bang ends, the return of a god..etc. it's all not true just lies.
I have been hearing all this nonsense of the Mayan Calendar stuff since 2007. I believed it at first but then I was all wait there has to be something sinister behind it. So I went site searching and I found this site to be the best one out of all of them. Its nothing new to me having went through the May 21st 2011 debacle. with Harold Camping that all these scam artists out there want money and to do it they will go to extremes to make it happen.
And to the site people. great job dedicating the time the resources and most definitely the sources to calm people down on the subject. But there will be more of these to come and I hope this site will counter every one of them and debunk them all. Keep up the good work.
A site like this would be a good place to solicit that, if you wanted to. Many of these parents will have children who suffer because of what the History Channel has repeatedly and aggressively done. As you know, we get hundreds of these questions on Y!A A&S forum every week. As we get closer to 2012, more kids will become more disturbed and the History Channel will continue to air that hideous BS documentary.
Of course, the History Channel will come up with the usual disclaimer, but it won't work. When they had "Armageddon Week", (and they will probably have it again), they made the following statement in the program description for that Mayan/2012 crockumentary:
"On December 21, 2012, the world is going to come to an end."
And they did *nothing* to soften or mitigate it! It would seem that they could be held liable for that.
Clear skies,
Brant
Hi Brant!
On my blog I actually offer to assist with any prosecution or civil action.
I agree regarding the open letter. Once we have a few more pages done there will be an 'open letter' posted that people can sign up to have their name placed on the list of signers.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
I remember vividly the radio program of Orson Welles, "War of the World". Everyone was calling in the station to see if it was true. Of course, not. The History Channel is NOT accountable for what parents let their children view. There is nothing obscene in the program, but with children's vivid imaginations could easily be scared. There is no reason for a lawsuit.
"Frustrated" said,
The History Channel is NOT accountable for what parents let their children view. There is nothing obscene in the program, but with children's vivid imaginations could easily be scared. There is no reason for a lawsuit.
Has 2012Hoax.org sought legal advice on this issue? The argument that "nobody has to watch what we broadcast" fails in some cases other than obscenity (e.g., defamation). But does it hold in this case?
I do not believe that a civil suit would go anywhere unless and until we have more than one person with 'standing', i.e., demonstrable damages.
Such a person might be the parent of a child who was physically injured or demonstrably affected (i.e., dropped out of school, started taking drugs, committed suicide) by viewing the programs. As such it would be a very difficult case to prove.
Their retort would probably be 1) nobody has to watch and 2) it's just entertainment. In fact I'm not sure that they don't have several disclaimers in place to guard against such lawsuits.
All that being said, I still think it is morally repugnant to put this kind of programming on the air, regardless of the time of day (have the never heard of DVRs?). Let us take the 'kids' argument out of it. Consider an adult, in the 18-20 year old range. Many people visiting this are in that range, and come here after viewing one or more of the History channel programs. If one of these people takes those shows as a documentary (which they are clearly designed to appear as) instead of entertainment (which is what HC says they are) then what responsibility does History Channel bear?
I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. But I am guessing that the answer is "not much".
I was a fan of History channel i watched all the time until they start putting on air programs that don not make sense like the Mayan calendar prophecy and the killing and more things like that. Now I think it is a disgusting channel they are teaching young man and young ladies things that are not correct.
the government should do something for the kids in U.S they are getting wrong information that's not good for the economy of the United states because they are the ones that are going to take power in the future. Our kids!
I still do not understand why History Channel, a respectable scientific channel, air those documentaries about 2012. What is behind those documentary? Money? What they should say after December 21st, 2012? "Oh, sorry, a mistake" or "Gotcha! I like to scare kids!"
But there is something: they interview scientists (i still do not watched any 2012 documentary from HC, but i cannot imagine a documentary without any scientist talking). But i already watched a Natgeo documentary that was called "2012: Countdown to Armageddon". You can see the documentary page here:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/2012-countdown-to-armageddon-4438
Adam Maloof appears in the doc.
The Natgeo wrote in the above page:
"Adam Maloof has a Ph.D. from Harvard University in Earth and Planetary Sciences and published his thesis in 2004 on "Three non-uniformitarian changes that shaped the Neoproterozoic Earth." He currently is an assistant professor of Geosciences at Princeton University. He has combined field based research with a diversity of geophysical and geochemical techniques to develop a true polar wander ("pole shift") theory for simultaneous climate, sea level, ocean-chemical and magnetic changes circa 800 million years ago.
In one study, Maloof looked at ancient sediments found in the Norwegian arctic and analyzed their magnetization. This experiment suggested that Earth may have lost its balance 800 million years ago and undergone true polar wander at a rapid rate of up to 5000 km per million year. Since 2006, Maloof has embarked on a long-term field project to test the true polar wander hypothesis with magnetic studies of rocks of identical age from elsewhere in the world (Australia).
Maloof’s research focuses on the relationship between ancient life, climate, and geography. His studies look at physical evidence left by winds, waves, currents, bio-evolution, ocean chemistry, and geomagnetism. Maloof uses this suite of observations to create a maps of Earth’s ancient landscape and climate. Maloof’s studies of Earth are even compared with Mars, a planet that also may have undergone large-scale true polar wander in its ancient past. In one sentence, Maloof works to shed light on the origin of life and the evolution of Earth’s climate."
He has a PhD. in HARVARD in Earth and planetary sciences.
Guys, what do you think?
but i cannot imagine a documentary without any scientist talking
I can, and I made some notes when watching two hours of nonsense entitled "Nostradamus 2012".
Here is a list of speakers, with their descriptions as captioned:
Gregg Braden - Author - The Divine Matrix
John Petersen - Author - Vision For 2012
Vincent Bridges - Co-author - Monument To The End Of Time
Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok - Author - Walking In The Fire
Lawrence Joseph - Author - Apocalypse 2012
John Major Jenkins - Author - Maya Cosmogenesis 2012
Joseph Jochmans, Lit.D - Maya Scholar
John Hogue - Author - Nostradamus And The Antichrist
Jay Weidner - Author - Secrets Of Alchemy
Moira Timms - Author & Archaic Futurist
Paul LaViolette, Ph.D - Author - Earth Under Fire
Clifford Mahooty - Zuni Pueblo consultant
What a bunch of woo artists. The only ones with any academic qualifications were:
Paul LaViolette: Considered to be in the the area of fringe or pseudoscience with, for example, his 'galactic superwave' theory.
Joseph Jochmans: Has debunked some of the 2012 predictions elsewhere, but on this programme he only made some general remarks about Nostradamus and never said anything specifically about 2012 (or if he did, it was edited out).
Adam Maloof is very legit. He dismisses the idea of a large rotation shift in the Earth's axis. What he is studying is true polar wander, the idea that the crust has slipped over the mantle due to distrubutions of mass at the poles. The present distribution of the continents on the surface of the Earth precludes a shift at this time. 800 million years ago, however was a different story altogether.
Absolutely Cameron. Maloof did a great article for NatGeo, too bad they kept a lot of people away by diluting the entire presentation with Doomsday bunk.
But i still do not understand why a respectable documentary channel makes such documentaries. They seems to be more interested in 2012 doomsday than Big Foot myths.
However, why the REAL scientist do not complain about the veracity of the information that documentaries provide?
A have a question for Bikenbeer2000: what are "galactic superwaves", the theory of Paul LaViolette? Because i think i have seen him somewhere (an apocalyptic documentary, thought)
LaViolette's theory of 'galactic superwaves' is an attempt to link theoretical periodic outbursts of energy from the centre of the galaxy with extinction events on Earth. He claims that the last such event was 14,000 years ago and that evidence for it exists in ice core samples.
His claims have not met with acceptance within mainstream science. There is an answer in a Q&A forum here from which the following summary is taken:
It looks to me like the absence of independent confirmation for Dr.
LaViolette's theories is pretty compelling. Twenty years ago he
predicted that polar ice cores and other isotope measurements would
confirm his ideas, but they haven't. Of course exactly what he means
by "galactic superwave" appears to be vague by design, so that no one
specific study will be able to disprove it. But this is a critical
element for a theory to be considered scientific, ie. falsifiability.
If Dr. LaViolette indulges in speculations that are never precise
enough to be plain wrong, it's not science, but it might help sell
some books.
I'm not sure whether you are referring to the Hysteria Channel or NatGeo. The Hysteria Channel has been showing their doomathons and assorted garbage instead of history for several years. They traded in their former credibility for higher ratings. NatGeo is headed down the same road. They still have some good programs, but they are interspered with doomsday nonsense. These channels have gone after the less intellectual target audience because it vastly increases their viewership & ratings, thereby allowing them to make more money for their advertising.
Hi Tomy,
We all know the poles wander. Did you perhaps do any calculations from that "5,000 km per million years" you quoted from Maloof's info? If I didn't lose any zeroes, that comes out to 5 meters per year, or 500m in a 100 year lifetime. If they wandered in the same direction (NP continuously moving straight south and SP moving straight north) for 4,000 years, that would amount to a geomagnetic reversal. That doesn't sound too frightening to me.
hoax?????????????????/hahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhaah
Dear no-idea-what-your-name-is,
I encountered your article and wanted to give it a fair chance and started reading.
To my disappointment you mostly provide your opinion not facts.
I'm not a cold person at all but people get killed over fear and ignorance on a daily basis.
The 2012 prophecy has killed less people than the Iraq war or any other for that matter.
There are more causes in this world that kill people faster than this 2012-item.
It's a shame that a 16 year old didn't receive proper guidance or a good reality check but there are lots of people doing horrible things to themselves or another.
A 7 year old boy got depressed and scared after watching the History channel ?
Seriously ? You want to use that as a convincing arguement ?
Parents! Parents are responsible for what their children watch and eventually make from it or answer their questions. In my opinion the mom just failed some basics.
Yes, I think it's good to re-research every rising idea, concept or rumor and critize it with facts and actual strong valid points.
I am sorry, but people die over more ridiculous things than 2012, let's fix those first.
Best wishes,
Roel Poelwijk
The Netherlands
Roel;
As one of the authors of this site, I'm surprised that you found it to be lacking in facts. We have worked very hard on debunking various doomsday claims by finding the facts and discussing them in a rational way. Perhaps you could indicate which page you felt to be lacking in facts?
As you know, it is easy to make a claim devoid of any factual basis, but it is much harder to make a case that the stated claim is false. We (the authors of this site) have tried to present the case that the doomsday claims are without any scientific support.
As far as your other points, I'm a bit confused. You appear to be saying that there is a lot of fear and ignorance on various topics, and therefore… what? We should not counter it in this specific topic because it exists in others? That we should not be concerned about the deplorable state of education that does not teach critical thinking skills? That because people get killed every day (in wars, famine, natural disasters) that we should ignore this and concentrate on those?
The argument that the 7 year old boy became depressed after watching one of the hyperbolic shows on the History channel is presented on the main page to make the argument that these shows are in fact causing people, mostly children, to have irrational fears of this make-believe doomsday. In fact, if you follow the comments back you will see that the quote arose out of a 'thank you' posted to this site by his mother, who was able to use the arguments presented here to reassure her son. So, what 'basics' did the mom fail? I did not get the impression that she allowed him to watch the show from her comment but rather that he saw it at one point (perhaps when he was watching something else, or perhaps at a friend's house) and came to her with his concerns. I do not think that your critique of her is warranted.
As far as your final point; Yes, people die over many more ridiculous things than the 2012 hoax. However, I am not willing to allow this nonsense to continue to go unchallenged. I am in a position to do something about the rumors of 2012. I am not in a position to do much about the civil war in Somalia, or the starving populace of North Korea.
Your argument appears to be equivalent to saying that because a larger war is being waged in one part of the world, that we should ignore the smaller ones. That does not make sense to me.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
im sorry i did not read ur full response to Roel, i have done so much reading and dont have very much attention span left, haha. But i did want to say one thing, Roel is right, u give ur opinion, but no facts. Ur site has definately helped me ease off of this 2012 nonsense that worried me day and night (i'm 13), but it would be nice for ur site to explain that stuff like Galactic Alignment and stuff that the history channel talks about, they are saying that the axis will shift and stuff, and i would like for u to research and post on that further.
Thank you for this site and sorry about my grammar, its late at night. :)
Jasmine, we give our opinions based on the facts. As Astrogeek says above, it's hard to prove a negative. I can say "There will be a car wreck at first and main next tuesday" and you can't prove it won't happen until tuesday has passed. The hoaxers say "there will be a pole shift in 2012" and there's no way to prove 100% that it won't happen until 2012 is past. However, we can use the facts of the situation to show that a pole shift is probably impossible.
As someone who has contributed to this site in a very small way, Roel Ppelwijk is free to take my comments with a grain of salt. He claims the site is based on opinion, not fact. I beg to disagree.
The major source for the 2012 myth is the assertion that the Mayans (or other Mesoamerican civilisation) predicted something on a global scale for the "end" of their current long count, which is due in late December 2012, probably on the solstice. Yet scholars whose expertise lies in the study of these civilisations categorically deny that there is such a prediction. That is a fact.
Another source is Ms. Nancy Lieder, a woman with next to no scientific training who claims to have been abducted by friendly extraterrestrial aliens sometime in the mid-1990s, when there was a series of such claims. It is a fact that she made such claims. While it is not possible to disprove such claims, they are improbable for thorougly understood physical reasons. She also claims to have been "implanted" with genetic material that allowed the aliens to communicate with her by a process we might call telepathy. Telepathy is another improbability. Simple probability theory shows that the combination of two improbable circumstances is even more improbable than either. So far, that is opinion. Now for some facts. She claimed that the friendly aliens warned her that the Earth would be damaged by a planet she called "X". This was to happen in mid-2003, nine years and six months before the supposed appearance of the same planet in 2012. Since the planet signally failed to appear, her prediction has been shown to be wrong by history. Postponing the prediction to 2012 is unlikely to make it correct.
As of September 2009 the planet should have been visible for several months to astronomers, professional and amateur around the world and in one or other hemisphere. It is not visible.
Another source are the assertions of the existence of a planet known as Nibiru which visits the inner solar system every 3600 years. These assertions were made by Mr. Z. Sitchin who it appears was an economist. Mr. Sitchin combined some Biblical passages with Sumerian creation legends and began to assert that this planet was inhabited by beings known as Annunaki or Nepthilim. At some time in the past, these beings crossed over to the Earth and created humans from the great apes as slaves. That assertion is not supported by the fossil record which indicates the gradual development of modern humans from ape-like ancestors over more than a million years and going through several known stages.
Mr. Sitchin supports his assertions with special readings of cuneiform tablets. These readings are universally condemned as wrong by scholars of the Sumerian culture. I should point out that some cuneiform tablets have been read since the 19th century, so the art of reading them is not new and there is a large archive of translations that existed independent of, and prior to Mr. Sitchin's readings. He also refers in particular to one clay plaque, probably a cylinder seal impression which he claims shows the Sun with planets orbiting it. This has been claimed as an "acccurate" model of the solar system. Since all the supposed planets are about the same distance from the supposed "Sun", then it is not "accurate". Further, the generally accepted authorities insist that the central mark claimed by Mr. Sitchin to represent our Sun is different from all other known representations of the Sun in such Sumerian art and is the conventional Sumerian mark for a star. Now it is possible that Mr. Sitchin is correct, and all the other scholars are wrong. It's a fine romantic notion that a single amateur can be right when dozens of experienced professionals are wrong. But like most romantic notions, it is rarely true.
In addition, the idea of an inhabited planet which is only in the inner solar system every 3600 years is highly improbable. If the planet followed the laws of planetary motion known since Kepler's time, it's orbit must be fantastically elongated and it would spend most of it's time well beyond the orbit of Pluto in the dark and cold of interstellar space. Any seas would freeze, most of any atmosphere would as well. Those are facts. The development of a space faring civilisation under such trying conditions is improbable. The development of any life at all seems highly unlikely. That is opinion based on historical and chemical facts.
Secondly, if the orbit of such a planet was in or near the plane of the ecliptic, interactions with the gas giants in our system would have either regularised it's orbit or ejected it from the solar system millions of years ago. That is a fact. It is of course possible that the orbit of such a planet is at a large angle to the ecliptic. That would minimise interactions with the known planets, but not eliminate them and regularisation or ejection still might have happened.
If Nibiru was due in 2012, then like planet X it should have been readily visible for several months. It is not visible. That is fact.
Finally Mr. Sitchin is on record as claiming that the next visit from Nibiru is not due until after 2085. Another fact.
Now if the concern was being felt by just one or two seven year old children, then all this is probably a waste of time. But it is not. There are about 30,000 questions on Yahoo! Answers about these fraudulent predictions. Many of them from internal evidence such as spelling and grammar, or simple statement come from children of 11 to 15. In most cases none of these children have any scientific education or certainly not enough scientific education to reject even the most obvious nonsense in thse predictions. They don't know that astrology is nonsense. The have no idea of orbital mechanics. Physics and chemistry remain closed books to them. The don't know there is a difference between rational science and irrational or money grubbing charlatanry. Yet hundreds of other web sites and YouTube clips tell them that it is all true. The potential for suicide or abandonment of education through despair is right there. Someone should take some kind of stand and the authors of this site have done so.
I am sorry, but people die over more ridiculous things than 2012, let's fix those first.
By all means, do fix the violence in the Middle East. If you can pull it off, you have my enthusiastic support.
So, what exactly compelled you to respond to a post nearly three years old?
I just happened to come accross this site, like others. I am not saying that this is (or is not) a hoax. In my opinion, from a person that has struggled with many forms of depression (even as a young child ).There are a million more things that will put a child in a state of depression. You are honestly using this child(1 CHILD) as a strong point that this all needs to be "debunked"????? I do not see the reason that and adult mother would have to tell a 7 year old that it isnt true more than one time, let alone the fact that they had to use a "debunking" website to further prove themselves. if the mother had to search for a website to prove that the world isnt going to end(in 2012), then the child is alot older than 7! and again i still see another point that this "child" shouldn't be used. The mother told the child that she has lived through the end of the world 10 times….. Shouldn't the mother be explaining that television is FAKE?? 99.99% of everything that is on television isn't real! I manage a daycare center and also have many children in my family. I see 7 year olds every day, and if they ask me about things that they have seen on television, i explain to them that alot of things on tv are lies that are made up by one person or the next. They ask me why… then i tell them that they are stories, and sometimes stories are sad,or mean, as well as happy. Then i remind them that lying is not a nice thing to do and sometimes lies even make people feel bad and may even make people cry…………… now…. that is where lies the problem…. the mother said she seen the world end 10 times….. that would make me feel sad as well.. we don't want to see our loved ones in a time like the end of the world. 7 YEARS OLD DESERVES A CHILDS EXPLANATION !!!
Now, those of you that think suing a tv station will do anything at all to stop a world wide scare… FOCUS ON THE REAL PROBLEMS!!! lets be realistic!! the world AND I MEAN EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, can use improvements. major improvements. if you did stop the 2012 rumors, what would be next?
GC2009;
We are not using only one child to indicate that this needs to be debunked. I suggest you read the opening page again. The issue is much larger than you imagine.
I also suggest you visit Astrogeek's blog entry on this to see how he became involved, or simply go to the Yahoo! Answers Astronomy & Space section and see the number of questions about 2012 being posted there. You can also read David Morrison's entry on the NASA website about the 2012 questions and answers, or his article from May 2008 in Skeptical Inquirer magazine.
If you still think that this is not a "real" problem, fine. Have a nice day.
Your insistence that we 'focus on the real problems' is (as a friend points out) a false dichotomy. Denying that the 2012 doomsday rumors are a problem simply because there are other, perhaps bigger problems says that 'either this problem or that problem' should be addressed, instead of 'both problems'.
The 2012 doomsday rumors may not seem like a real problem to you, but based on the comments on Astrogeek's blog and on the comments here, it seems to be a real problem to many other people. The example of the 7-year old arose from a mother who was thanking the authors of this site for providing the information she needed in order to reassure her child! Yet you choose to criticize. What, exactly, are you criticizing? The 7-year old seeing the program? The mother using information on this site to reassure her child? The fact that this site exists at all?
I see that you all would like to prove that other people ar lying about 2012…I'm sure they are.. but I don't see the reason that you are trying so hard to let everyone know that it is so wrong to follow anothers lies… that is a lesson that has to be learned. and everyone in the world learns it.. my point is simple… you are creating a group of "followers" just the same as they are… i find you all entertaining… NO OFFENSE!!!… im not trying to offend anyone.. but honestly, i dont see this becomming a pandemic… or a worldwide panic.. AS STATED BY MANY…. IT IS SIMPLY REDICULAS. both your fight and theirs… there is very little difference in the "hoax/debunk"fight than a domestic despute… if you sat in front of the person that started the 2012 "hoax" .. it would turn into a domestic… there will never be a time when someone isnt trying to prove that the world is going to end…. the fact still remains, that SOME DAY it will… niether you nor i may ever see it… or maybe we will… but this is a fight that you will die fighting… after we find out that 12 21 2012 has came and went… the people that capitalized on it, will have money,but also look like fools that the world will look down on and laugh at. THERE WILL BE OTHERS!!! Even religios beliefs are prophecizing about doomsday… it will never stop, well, that is until the world really does end… you are doing just what the people that started the lie wanted…. you are fighting back and driving the popularity of the whole issue to planet x and back…. sorry for the pun… but it is simple business… i start the idea… let it spread to the critics.. in the mean time.. i write a book and prepare to capitalize on all of your hard work… and by your hard work, i mean, you stirring up the hype and sending the floods of cash my way… you will send the cashby entertainment and the common question "What if?"….. now im rich(from lying) and you are not… and you are the one who is mad….. BUSINESS!!!!!!!!! Just like any car dealer, telemarketing company, timeshare, the list goes on and on and on…. this is why i see it as entertainment… you are making them rich and famous…..
GC2009;
As far as entertainment value, a read through of Arguelles' and Lieder's beliefs should help you out there. As far as it being ridiculous: Yes, yes it is. However the primary 'target audience' that appears to be accepting this at face value are elementary- and middle-school aged children who lack the critical thinking skills necessary to separate fact from fiction.
I do not expect belief in the 2012 doomsday to become "pandemic" in your words. I do expect it to become fairly widespread in that population. It already is.
Look back at my hoax page to see how I got started down this path of debunking this particular myth. That page was used as the starting point for this site, and the other authors have expanded on it and added new material.
As for the rest of your point: I disagree, of course. There is quite a bit of difference between the hoax/debunk fight than a domestic dispute. I personally have never slept with a 2012er. :-D I agree that someone is always trying to claim the world will end. A glance at "A Brief History of the Apocalypse" will tell you that. However, the concern this time around is that the Liederites have joined up with the Arguellesers and the Jenkinsistas to create a massive meta-myth that has gained traction in certain audiences. I personally lived through the Y2k mess as a computer geek, and to me, the 2012 hysteria appears to be worse. I am concerned about repeats of the "Heaven's Gate" cult results. We already have children expressing concern over the date, both online and in person.
As I say in the hoax page above, I used to answer questions like "what would happen if you fell into a black hole", whereas now I'm answering questions like "I saw a video on YouTube that showed we will all die in 2012, is that true?". Take a glance at the Yahoo! Answers Astronomy & Space category sometime.
As far as making money for them, that horse has already left the barn. Both Arguelles and Geryl have basically retired in secluded areas. One can only hope we never hear from them again.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
While I don't agree in starting class action lawsuits over this I think the 2012 stuff, if it does in fact prove to be a large scale misinterpretation (I.E. not an apocalypse), will be causing suicides; probably in large numbers.
So far about 15 people have committed suicide over the death of Michael Jackson of all things. I'd hate to see what the "end of the world" will bring.
You guys really did your research into this. I also got really sick of these twisted people like Sony Pictures (or Columbia, whichever it was) specifically advertise the world will end in 2012. I know it was a fake advertisement now, but it really made me question the theory to be true. These people are sick to make these advertisements just for money and not tell the whole truth like a rating symbol or something. I got 2 words for you sellers advertising crap about nothing: **** YOU!!!
Thank you. Speaking for all of the contributors, we appreciate your compliments! And… um… yeah, I have to agree with your "two words" too.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
i was shocked about the rumors that the earth will end and i was terrible shocked and
when i saw this ifelt comfortable thank you.'.'.'.'
you have been misled. prepare for the comet impacts and stockpile your supplies
Don't worry, Ben, if you had finished watching that episode of "Buck Rogers" instead of covering your eyes in fear, you'd have seen Buck save the Earth from the Ice Monster with his laser gun.
By all means, start stockpiling. The US economy could use a boost. Buy Beef Jerky, as it has a long shelf life.
Good work indeed!
I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm collecting all kinds of nonsense about the ancient Sumerians, and putting it on http://thosepoorsumerians.wordpress.com.
I collected some really crazy stuff, and of course Sitchin's Annunaki and 2012 form a significant part of what I found till now.
Anyone have any recent contact with SPS/Spiritual Paradigm Shift/The Shift/et. al. on Yahoo! Answers? How's the start of the 7 year tribulation working for him?*
*To be fair, we still have about a month and a half of summer left. Maybe it's just taking a little while to get things in gear?
what are you saying??? the last thing buging me about 2012 is a pole shift, are you saying a pole shift will occur?
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