Galactic Plane / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page Galactic Plane.

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3 million years ago?

Josh Stevens (guest) 21 Jun 2009 06:07

You say that the last time we passed through the center of the disk was 3 million years ago. Don't you think this should be something you should touch more on? What evidence is there for such an event occuring? Is this pure speculation based on angles? All these scientific articles seem to point to a young earth. If you say that this happened 3 million years ago, well… wouldn't that mean that 3 million years ago there was devastation that was seen today. And these articles about polar shifts that happen every 300,000 or so years being so calamitous, coming from people who teach that it took millions of years for us to evolve.

Re: 3 million years ago?

Astrogeek 21 Jun 2009 06:30

Hi Josh;

I'm not sure how much more we could touch on the movement of the solar system through the milky way as a whole. The point of this particular page is to refute and debunk the specific claim that the solar system will pass through the central plane of the galaxy in 2012.

As far as evidence, the bibliography gives a citation to a specific source, specifically:

McFadden, Lucy-Ann; Weissman, Paul Robert; Johnson, Torrence V.; 2007 Encyclopedia of the solar system, Academic Press, 2007. ISBN 0120885891, 9780120885893

as well as an online source. We do not yet have a citation for the primary literature.

You say:

All these scientific articles seem to point to a young earth.

That claim does not appear to be consistent with the contents of this article. The evidence indicates that the Earth is somewhat older than 4.5 billion years.

If you say that this happened 3 million years ago, well… wouldn't that mean that 3 million years ago there was devastation that was seen today.

No, not necessarily. There is an hypothesis that the passage of the solar system through the plane of the galaxy may cause an increased chance of bombardment. However, the 'plane' is fairly thick, on the order of several light years. So it is likely (if this hypothesis is true) that the chances of bombardment are increased during a few million years, and not tied to a specific date with any precision.

And these articles about polar shifts that happen every 300,000 or so years being so calamitous, coming from people who teach that it took millions of years for us to evolve.

Actually that's not true at all. The ideas that polar shifts (assuming you mean magnetic polar shifts) are calamitous are coming from pseudo-scientists. Most scientists in the earth-sciences fields believe that magnetic pole shifts are frequent in geologic time, but do not occur on a regular cycle, and do not appear to be associated with mass extinctions or increases in mutation rates.

This has nothing to do with the fact that it took billions of years for us to evolve.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Re: 3 million years ago?

angelicscorn (guest) 11 Mar 2010 09:23

This is from an article on http://www.angelicscorn.co.uk/
When it comes to space, our knowledge is very limited and we are only discovering things today that the ancients already knew thousands of years ago. The reason why we know so little is because modern humans only started to explore space recently and space is very very big.
When it comes to 2012 and space, the range of opinions, ideas and theories become even more various. The underling reason for this is because our knowledge about space it self is very limited. When one look at the 2012 theories there are 6 main view points that is generally theorized about, namely planet X, the galactic plane, meteor strikes, extinction, sun flares and Alien visitors.
Planet X
One of the 2012 theories is that an unknown planet will crash into earth in 2012. In today’s modern world we have multi billion dollar telescopes in space, million dollar ground base telescopes on earth and millions of private telescopes looking at the night sky and non of them has seen planet X.
Meteor strike
There are millions of meteors, asteroids and comets in space and some day one of them will strike earth, in fact thousands of little meteors and asteroids strikes earth everyday. There is however no big asteroid, meteor or comet on its way to earth at this point in time. The reason why we can say this is because there are millions of eyes looking up in to space everyday and no one has see one on it way to earth. A big meteor, asteroid or comet impact could wipe thousands of species out on earth but that will not happen in 2012 but it will happen someday in the future.
Alien Visitors
This is a very popular theory, but we have no conclusive prove to support this theory, but it is definitely a theory that needs a good look at. Most of the religions on earth believe in the return or the coming of a supreme being from the heavens. Many of the ancient cultures had knowledge we are only discovering today. There is a tribe in Africa whom worships a planet which circles the star Vega. They say a visitor from that planet visited them and taught them, they even have a festival based on this planet new year. To make things worse that planet does exist and their festival is based exactly on the planets year.
Sun flare
Mankind has observed solar activity sins 1612 when sun spots where first discovered by modern man. Over this period we have observed that massive solar storm are preceded by quite periods, we have also observed that global cooling that’s place during quite periods. We have also observed that the solar activity runs in 11 year cycles. We have also experienced what large solar storms can do to us on the ground. In 1859 almost all the electronic equipment on earth was destroyed by a massive solar storm, a few years back a smaller solar storm took out Quebec’s power grid. To make things even worse we have also discovered that the earth magnetos sphere, which protects us from solar storms are weakening. The reason for that is that over thousands of years the earth’s magnetic poles switch. Evidence for this has been found in lava flows, ice cores and earth deposits. Just before the magnetos sphere switches around the magnetos sphere weakens. At this moment in time earth’s magnetos sphere has a ‘hole’ in it. This ‘hole’ is located between South Africa and South America and its growing. The term ‘hole’ however is incorrect. This area between South Africa and South America is where the magnetic field is flowing from south to north instead of from north to south like on the rest of the planet. This means that any solar storm today will have more effect on us the in the past.
The sun has been very quite over the last few years which according to our nearly 400years of experience mean that the sun is preparing for a massive solar storm predicted to occur in 2012, the end of the next 11year cycle. There is however a part of the puzzle that does not fit. In the past 400years fewer sun spots meant global cooling, jet all the ice sheets on the planet is melting and infrared scans says that the entire solar system is heating up. Either all our 400year old data is wrong or something else is coming into play this time around.
Extinction
Extinctions have been part of life on this planet since it started to form about 1 billion years ago. This article is not going to discuss extinctions it self but when it happened in relation to a Galactic year. The image below shows the following; ever 250million years there is a massive extinction. Our solar system takes 250million years to complete one Galactic year. Every halve galactic year there is a small extinction and ever quarter galactic year life seems to blossom, excluding for the meteor impact 75 million years ago which killed off the Dinosaurs. There is a small possibility that on the 21st of December 2012 that we will complete our third Galactic year and we will be at the same area in space where the 2 biggest extinction events the planet has ever known, have taken place.
The Galactic Plane
There are four main stream views on the Galactic plane, we will have an over view on all four of these main stream views pointing out their faults and plus points.
The newest view point is that the solar system will not be crossing the galactic plane in 2012 or anytime in the near future. This conclusion was draw after counting the stars divided in to grids, but some of the stars were not counted and only stars of a certain class was counted. That brings up the question: Can we really believe information that has excluded some information in its calculations to be true?
Another view point is illustrated by the image below. According to this view point the earth aligns with the Galactic plane twice a year. This view point however is completely wrong, because our solar system is moving west in other words we are moving up on this illustration and we are not circling the Galaxy on the path as illustrated on that image. Another conclusion that was drawn from this illustration was that the center of the Galaxy always pulls on our solar system at the same strength as we orbit the Galaxy. This is also wrong. The Milky Way does not have one black hole at the center but several which are aligned in a straight line forming a bar. To view a photo of the Milky Way and other galaxies click here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lATU1TbKaEM
The image below shows the Milky Way. On this image it is very clear that the points on the central bar is pulling stars in while no stars are entering the center, there for the gravity at the end off the bar is stronger and we will experience a greater gravitational pull on our solar system when passing these points.
Another theory is illustrated by the image below. This theory says that the solar system is wobbling its way around the solar system. This theory states that this wobble takes about 65million years according to some or 88million years according to others. This wobbling is also used to explain why there is an extinction event every 65million years and also answers the question why we are moving west at this point in time. There is however three questions this theory has to answer. Since the stars are spread apart form each other by billions of miles of space and space it self has no gratify how can we be pulled towards an empty section of space? They answered this question by saying that it is the red giant stars that pulls us back. If this is true it means that one of these stars will have a greater effect then the others, and since this has been happening over 4.5 billion years, where is this red giant we are being pulled towards? As jet there is no answer. If this theory is correct, why is it so difficult to determent where the galactic plane is if we could just measure the solar systems acceleration and deceleration to determent our position in respect to Galactic plane? As jet there is no answer.
At the moment until the above theory is proven beyond any doubt the image below are the most accurate illustration of our solar systems path around the Milky Way if we take current proven knowledge in account.
In Conclusion.
According to the ancients and scientists from the 1960’s we will be passing the galactic plane at the 21st of December 2012, and until scientists can use a different method to the reduction method, which discounts some of the information, are found to prove differently we will be passing thou the Galactic plane on the 21st of December 2012.
This on it self however does not prove to be a problem on its own; the problem will occur ones we line up with our galaxy’s central elongated beam.
The fact that the two biggest extinction events took place in our current time period, the escalating seismic activity on the planet, the heating of the solar system during a period where cooling was suppose to take place, should all serve as warning signs. Something is happening.

Re: 3 million years ago?

bikenbeer2000 11 Mar 2010 13:22

I'll give the full link, to make this easier to follow: http://www.angelicscorn.co.uk/2012%203%20years%20after%20life.htm

When it comes to space, our knowledge is very limited and we are only discovering things today that the ancients already knew thousands of years ago.

As soon as I see a statement like this, my baloney detectors switch on.
I'll deal with the section on the galactic plane because the author seems hopelessly muddled.

This conclusion was draw after counting the stars divided in to grids, but some of the stars were not counted and only stars of a certain class was counted.

I'm not aware that this is true. Where does this statement come from?

This view point however is completely wrong, because our solar system is moving west in other words we are moving up on this illustration and we are not circling the Galaxy on the path as illustrated on that image.

The illustration is accurate (surprisingly enough).

The Milky Way does not have one black hole at the center but several which are aligned in a straight line forming a bar.

There is evidence of one black hole. There is no evidence for several.

This wobbling is also used to explain why there is an extinction event every 65million years

There is no evidence for extinction events at regular 65 million year intervals.

If this is true it means that one of these stars will have a greater effect then the others, and since this has been happening over 4.5 billion years, where is this red giant we are being pulled towards?

We are not pulled by individual stars but by the aggregate mass of the galaxy, which is concentrated towards the central plane.

At the moment until the above theory is proven beyond any doubt the image below are the most accurate illustration of our solar systems path around the Milky Way if we take current proven knowledge in account.

The solar system stays close to the central plane of the galaxy. The wild excursion shown in this diagram is totally wrong.

According to the ancients and scientists from the 1960’s we will be passing the galactic plane at the 21st of December 2012

This claim has already been debunked here: http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-plane
Ancients knew nothing about the solar system's motion around the galaxy. The position of the central plane of the galaxy is uncertain by several light years and is impossible to define exactly anyway. Our solar system takes a period of the order of a million years to pass through this zone. To tie this passage down to a single specified date is ridiculous.

the problem will occur ones we line up with our galaxy’s central elongated beam.

Gravity does not operate in preferential directions. Gravity depends on mass and distance. It doesn't matter if this alleged 'bar' is aligned end-on or across, if its mean distance is the same, the gravitational pull will be the same.

The author of this article illustrates the point that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. He/she appears to have a little knowledge of science, but then takes the 'blind them with science' approach by trying to incorporate various unproven beliefs as fact. Anyone who does have some knowledge of science can see straight through it.

Last edited on 11 Mar 2010 21:19 by bikenbeer2000 Show more

Re: 3 million years ago?

John (guest) 11 Mar 2010 21:09

So wait…we will be at the same point in our solar system where there were past mass extinctions? That doesn't exactly sound promising…

Re: 3 million years ago?

bikenbeer2000 11 Mar 2010 21:30

Not for 30 million years or so, as explained here: http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-plane

Re: 3 million years ago?

John (guest) 11 Mar 2010 22:32

So we won't finish another galactic year for 30 million more years?

Re: 3 million years ago?

bikenbeer2000 11 Mar 2010 23:17

No, a galactic year is the period of the solar system's orbit around the galaxy, about 225 million years. The period of the vertical oscillation of the solar system about the central plane is about 60 - 70 million years, so we complete more than 3 of these oscillations in a galactic year.
The important point is that we passed through the central plane in the last 3 million years and won't return through it for about another 30 million years.

Re: 3 million years ago?

John (guest) 12 Mar 2010 01:34

And he is saying that 2012 is the start of a new galactic year, in which every 225 million years there has been a major extinction. Thats what I am trying to ask. Is it really the start of a new galactic year? Are there really mass extinctions recorded ever 225 million years when we start a new one? What could of caused them? I apologize for all the questions…

Re: 3 million years ago?

bikenbeer2000 12 Mar 2010 01:40

There's no evidence for mass extinctions every galactic year. He's just making it up.

Re: 3 million years ago?

John (guest) 12 Mar 2010 16:17

So everyone is wrong when they say there is an extinction every 250 million years? Such as The Great Dying?

Re: 3 million years ago?

bikenbeer2000 13 Mar 2010 00:59

There was the Great Dying, 250 million years ago. I'm not aware of any scientific study showing a correlation between this and the Galactic Year. The plot of dates of extinction events shows many more in the period 300 - 500 million years ago than recently, so if this author want to cherry-pick his extinction event, I'm sure he could link it to whatever time pattern he wants.

Spud (guest) 12 Nov 2010 02:44

Dinosaurs extinction happened 65.5 million years ago. we pass center of disk every 32.8 million years. So 65.5 -32.8 = 32.7 So first cycle from that point of time puts us at 32.7 million years ago. Next cycle to place us at exactly same spot when dinosaurs were extinct would be 32.7-32.8= -0.1 or there about. So it looks like we are due for big one any time.

3WMElliott 12 Nov 2010 02:50

Using that logic, something bad happened 10 years ago, so something bad will happen in 10 years time.

There is no evidence the galactic plane was involved in the extinction of the dinosaurs, and there's even evidence that we passed through the plane only a few million years ago either 3 or 7, I forget, suffice it to say it's going to be a looong time before we go through it once more. At which point, again, nothing interesting will happen.

Last edited on 12 Nov 2010 02:52 by 3WMElliott Show more

TheGreatJuju 12 Nov 2010 03:19

Dinosaurs extinction happened 65.5 million years ago. we pass center of disk every 32.8 million years. So 65.5 -32.8 = 32.7 So first cycle from that point of time puts us at 32.7 million years ago. Next cycle to place us at exactly same spot when dinosaurs were extinct would be 32.7-32.8= -0.1 or there about. So it looks like we are due for big one any time.

It is presumptuous at best and absurd at worst to assume that is indicative of any cycle at all. You're just playing with numbers and pronouncing significance without any basis whatsoever.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

Thanks

Josh Stevens (guest) 21 Jun 2009 06:41

So is there any evidence out there that people use to show that there have been polar shifts. I've heard some stuff about volcanos that have different magnetic fields but that's about it. Are these simply conjectures based on the pattern of the earth today or can geologic arguments be given?

Re: Thanks

Astrogeek 21 Jun 2009 06:58

Hi Josh;

The prehistoric magnetic field can be measured as far as its strength and polarity by examining certain crystals embedded in some kinds of rocks. I'm a bit foggy on the details, but the science behind it is quite solid.

One of the things that can be observed on the earth today is the 'magnetic striping' of the sea-bed around spreading centers (as in the atlantic rift zone). The geologic deposits record the strength and direction of the earths magnetic field over the course of millions of years. This was major evidence supporting the Plate Tectonics theory.

I would suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics#Explanation_of_magnetic_striping and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field for more details.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Wayne (guest) 14 Feb 2011 00:43

Anyone can edit wiki content. The wiki reference can only be used for start point.

TheGreatJuju 14 Feb 2011 01:53

Anyone can edit wiki content. The wiki reference can only be used for start point.

Nice necro, Wayne. Do you have some kind of point? The Wikipedia articles in question happen to be well-sourced and consistent with current scientific understanding on the issues. If you disagree, then have a look here, here, here and here, and tell us what you think is wrong with that information. Needling little posts in long-dead discussions are pretty much useless.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

Proof

Jonoh (guest) 14 Oct 2009 21:40

Quote: "We have shown that the Solar System passes through the galactic plane every 33 million years or so, and that we last passed through it about 3 million years ago. We are therefore not due to pass through it again in 2012."
Citation is needed for things like that. I was looking for the source of data that gave rise to these statement, aimed at calming people down with happy, blind 'fact', but I found none here. I'll look more closely, but that's not as important as my recommendation that you present more than just lovely 'don't worry, this is the real truth' sort of statement. You need to make the actual data and qualified interpretation of the data that justifies the statements VERY clear. Having said that, scientists dont agree on what the actual evidence is telling them. There are scientists who make a good case for the galactic plane theory. Lets see the data, a guiding article on explaining the data and then we can be more informed about making up our minds.

Re: Proof

2012hoax 15 Oct 2009 00:51

Thank you for pointing out that oversight.

Here is the reference: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v316/n6030/abs/316706a0.html

I will correct the article to include the reference. Thanks again.

Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

(account deleted) 11 Oct 2010 00:25

The "Winter Solstice Woo" season is only two months away, so I wanted to firm up our pages on related subjects. One concern I have is that a diligent member of the 2012 faithful who followed the oft-heard advice "Do your own research", could end up badly confused about the Galactic Plane.

Here's an example of how that might occur. I posted it on another site some months ago, but received no responses. (Its members had already helped me quite a bit, and had undoubtedly moved on to other subjects.)

I'll be appreciative of any suggestions.

Please be aware that most of my links below DO NOT WORK.

Unfortunately, confusions about the Galactic Equator and Galactic Plane bedevil the whole discussion of 2012, and are one of the few legitimate gripes that 2012 proponents have with us. As much as I hate to admit it, we haven’t been models of clarity.

For example, here is the full quote from the source I cited (in the video) about the artificiality of the Galactic Equator:

One of the things which is supposed to happen on December 21, 2012 is that the Earth and Sun are supposed to line up with the Milky Way’s equator. So the first question should be, “What is the galactic equator?” Unlike a planet, a galaxy is not a nice neat spheroid, but is an irregular lumpy mass of stars, gas, and dust. It’s somewhat symmetrical, but trying to draw an equator on it would be like nailing jelly to a tree. What astronomers have done is to create an arbitrary line roughly across the centre of our galaxy, and have defined that as the galactic equator. This work was started by Harlow Shapley about 90 years ago and, while it’s been refined somewhat over the years, it still is a very arbitrary line. It was officially defined by the International Astronomical Union in 1959, but it is there by definition, not based on any physical characteristics or markers. (http://www.starrynighteducation.com/.../2008/06/#art1)

Similarly, from NASA itself:

In fact, astronomy cannot pinpoint such a "galactic alignment" to within a year, much less a day. The alignment depends on the rather arbitrary modern definition of the galactic equator, and/or the visual appearance of the Milky Way. (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/fea...012-guest.html)

Here’s a typical definition:

The galactic equator (i.e., 0º galactic latitude) is coincident with the plane of the Milky Way Galaxy …(Where is M13? — User Manual (version 2.3), http://www.thinkastronomy.com/M13/Ma...ic_coords.html)

Ah! Now we understand; the Galactic Equator lies within the Galactic plane. The conscientious, truth-seeking Woo-Woo will find support for this idea in the following as well:

Definition of “galactic coordinates”
Coordinates based on the plane of the Milky Way Galaxy, which is inclined about 63° to the celestial equator, and centered on the Sun, with the zero point of longitude and latitude pointing directly at the galactic center. Before 1958, the zero point of galactic latitude and longitude was taken to lie at R.A. 17h 45.6m, Dec. -28° 56.2' (in Sagittarius). Galactic latitude (b) is measured from the galactic equator north (+) or south (-); galactic longitude (l) is measured eastward along the galactic plane from the galactic center. (http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...ordinates.html)

Now, the Woo-Woo will diligently look for a definition of the Galactic Plane. The following is from Wikipedia, but it’s representative:

The galactic plane is the plane in which the majority of a disk-shaped galaxy's mass lies. The directions perpendicular to the galactic plane point to the galactic poles. Most often, in actual usage, the terms "galactic plane" and "galactic poles" are used to refer specifically to the plane and poles of the Milky Way, which is the galaxy in which the Earth is located.

Some galaxies are irregular and do not have any well-defined disk. Even in the case of a spiral galaxy like the Milky Way, defining the galactic plane is slightly imprecise and arbitrary since the stars are not perfectly coplanar. In 1959 the IAU defined the position of the Milky Way's north galactic pole as exactly RA = 12h49m, Dec = 27°24′ in the then-used B1950 epoch; in the currently-used J2000 epoch, after precession is taken into account, its position is RA 12h51m26.282s, Dec 27°07′42.01″. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_plane)

OK, so the Galactic Equator coincides with the Galactic Plane, which is rather arbitrary. Therefore, the Galactic Equator is rather arbitrary. The Woo-Woo is now convinced, until he or she recalls something else from one of the definitions we saw earlier:

Definition of “galactic coordinates”
Coordinates based on the plane of the Milky Way Galaxy, which is inclined about 63° to the celestial equator, and centered on the Sun, with the zero point of longitude and latitude pointing directly at the galactic center. Before 1958, the zero point of galactic latitude and longitude was taken to lie at R.A. 17h 45.6m, Dec. -28° 56.2' (in Sagittarius). Galactic latitude (b) is measured from the galactic equator north (+) or south (-); galactic longitude (l) is measured eastward along the galactic plane from the galactic center. (http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...ordinates.html)

Putting all of this together, doesn’t this mean that the Sun lies within the Galactic Plane?! If so, why have we debunkers been proclaiming the following to refute another common 2012 myth?

Based on the solar system's current position (27 +/- 4 pc, or 75 to 101 light years) above the galactic plane and the fact that we are currently moving away from it, with an estimated passage through it about 3 million years ago, we are not due to re-encounter the galactic plane for quite some time. We won’t be back through the disk for another 30 million years! (Debunking the "2012 Doomsday", http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-plane)

I think we can all see where the Woo-Woo might be a little confused by now.

Incidentally, the above is a fairly accurate account of my own experiences in trying to nail this issue down. What I tell people (I read this somewhere) is that the Galactic Equator very nearly coincides with the Galactic Plane (we're about 27,000 light-years out from the Galactic Center, and only 100 above the Plane). However, that Plane is itself rather arbitrary.

I think we may want to take advantage or our opportunity to spare readers this confusion. What might we tell them?

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Last edited on 11 Oct 2010 00:28 by (account deleted) Show more

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

Alene Y 11 Oct 2010 04:22

Hi Jim,
I agree with what you're saying, but I wouldn't be much help in clarifying these points. I always visualize the establishment of the galactic equator as being much like drawing the best estimated line through the center of a bunch of data points on a graph and ending up with roughly half the points above and half below the line.
I am pretty much lost on how the galactic equator compares to the galactic plane. However, since the galactic equator is an arbitrary line drawn by humans, I can't understand why the woo sector thinks it affects us in any way. It didn't become any more tangible just because someone drew a line to define it.

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

bikenbeer2000 11 Oct 2010 14:26

Hi Jim

Going back to the IAU 1958 definition of the galactic coordinate system, the galactic north pole was defined as RA 12h 49m, Dec +27.4° (B1950), so there is an implied error of 0.5m in the RA and 0.05° in the Dec. This shows that the apparently precise line called the galactic equator isn't really quite so precise after all. Calculations such as those by Meeus to determine the date at which the solstice point crossed this line are thus rather pointless without a disclaimer that there could be an error of several years. The same applies to diagrams showing the edge of the solstice sun just touching the galactic equator in the years 1980 and 2016.

The fact that the Sun is 100 light years above the galactic plane but the galactic equator passes through the Sun (or Earth according to some sources) indicates that they are not coplanar. Moreover, I found this study which gives the pole of the galactic plane at a position of over 0.5° from the pole of the galactic coordinate system. This implies that the galactic plane and equator are tilted by at least this amount with respect to one another. The 100 ly offset of the Sun from the galactic plane would also subtend an angle of about 0.2° at the galactic centre.

In summary, I would say this:
1) The galactic coordinate system was not defined with any great accuracy so it is pointless to dissect, down to the finest detail, phenomena such as the solstice point crossing the galactic equator.
2) The galactic equator and the galactic plane are not the same and are not even necessarily parallel to one another.

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

(account deleted) 11 Oct 2010 19:47

Thanks for your replies, Alene (here) and Bikenbeer (here). For anyone who comes to this post from other pages on this website, Alene and Bikenbeer were replying to this post of mine.

As Alene noted,

[S]ince the galactic equator is an arbitrary line drawn by humans, I can't understand why the woo sector thinks it affects us in any way.

Unfortunately, I can understand it. John Major Jenkins got the ball rolling in 1998 with statements like this one, from Maya Cosmogenesis:

…I would like to emphasize that the Galactic equator -the precise edge of our spiraling Galaxy- is the zero point location of the turnabout moment in the cycle of precession. This World Age shift occurs when the solstice sun crosses over the Galactic equator, and thus the Galactic alignment in 2012 is about a field-effect energy-reversal. (p. 328)

To my knowledge, he's never retracted this statement, and as of 2009 still refers to the Galactic Equator as the precise mid-line of the Milky Way (The 2012 Story, pp. 140-141).

Even more unfortunately, the definition given by Anthony Aveni in his The End of Time: The Maya Mystery of 2012 doesn't help the person who genuinely wants to know the difference between the Galactic Equator and the Galactic Plane:

galactic equator: A great circle in the sky that marks the central line of the Milky Way Galaxy. It is defined by the peak concentration of neutral hydrogen observed at a radio wavelength of twenty-one centimeters. Also termed the "plane of the galaxy". (p. 180)

So, I think we need a page giving an explanation that includes statements like those at the end of Bikenbeer's reply. I'll work on one, then ask you to review it.

Thanks again.

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Last edited on 11 Oct 2010 19:52 by (account deleted) Show more

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

bikenbeer2000 12 Oct 2010 16:17

Hi Jim

I decided to write a spreadsheet to see just how much a small change in the coordinates of the IAU (1958) definition of the north pole of the galactic coordinate system would alter the date when the solstice point crosses the galactic equator. With the nominal values for the pole coordinates, the spreadsheet gives a date of 1998.6, in good agreement with Meeus. It turns out that:

An increase of 1 minute in RA causes the crossing date to occur 16.4 years earlier.
An increase of 0.1º in Dec causes the crossing date to occur 3.7 years later.

As per my previous post, if we assume an implicit uncertainty of 0.5m in RA and 0.05º in Dec, then the crossing date has an uncertainty of +/- 10 years.

I'm not sure why I didn't think of trying this calculation earlier. I'm not aware of anyone else having published any such calculation. Feel free to include it in whatever updates you are planning and maybe you could take a leaf out of JMJ's book and refer to it as 'ground-breaking' or 'pioneering'.

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

(account deleted) 12 Oct 2010 22:16

Hi Bikenbeer,

Mad magazine once did a reader-satisfaction survey that asked, "What is your opinion of Mad, overall? The responses from which readers could choose were

A. Excellent
B. Really excellent.
C. Truly excellent.
D. Really, truly excellent.

Along those same lines, if you don't mind I'll call your calculation

"Bikenbeer's really ground-breaking, truly pioneering calculation". :-)

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

bikenbeer2000 12 Oct 2010 23:05

Thank you.

My cousin in Canada used to send me occasional copies of Mad magazine (I'm in the UK) and I was quite amused by it although never getting to see very much of it. I remember it had a comic strip called Star Blecch, which was completely lost on me until Star Trek started over here, then it all fell into place.

It's all coming back to me now: http://www.startrekanimated.com/mad_main.html

Re: Galactic Plane and Galactic Equator

(account deleted) 12 Oct 2010 23:39

I remember that comic strip well!!

Mad ran another Star Trek satire in the form of a "musical" (there were footnotes telling us the tune to which each character's words were to be sung). That satire had one of my favorite Trekkie jokes:

Q: Why do Vulcans have pointed ears?

A: So they can count to twelve.

Well, we all just got done dressing-down "dharma" for off-topic posts, so I guess I'd better behave myself. I don't suppose Astrogeek would buy it if I told him that that joke's relevant to the website just because "twelve" is mentioned.

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

snorks (guest) 31 Oct 2010 16:50

Was there an alignment with the Earth going to the center of the Milky Way in 1998? That altered anything? Barbara Hand Clow states it is a science fact…. just checking to see if she is full of nonsense. Also if not true, then where did this idea come from?

Moo (guest) 31 Oct 2010 19:09

… What? Okay, that was kind of confusion, so let me stab at this in two points of view…

1) Do you mean has the earth aligned with the center of the Milky Way in 1998? "Alignment' is a manner of speaking, and can easily be called as a 'line' between two points. In this logic, we are >always< aligned with the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. So… yeah. We're all dead. Enjoy? I guess…

2) Have we traveled through the center of the Milky Way? I… don't think that's how it works. I'm under the impression that while we may float around in our galaxy, I think a common distance is kept between us and that supermassive black hole. 3 million lightyears at a constant, anyway. I don't know, really. I don't care.

Anyway, as for Barbara Hand Clow… she states this statement you didn't make clear as a 'science fact'? Okay… can I see the documented proof we did one of two things that is either 1) Arguably always happening, or 2) Strictly Impossible?

Can you make your statement clearer? Also, I can pretty much answer that last part easily.

Ahem.

"Where did this idea come from?"

Hey guys, catgirls would be hot, right?

And thus catgirls were born.

Same logic applied: Stupidity.

bikenbeer2000 31 Oct 2010 19:44

The Earth is about 25,000 light years from the centre of the Milky Way. That was also the case in 1998 and will remain so for the forseeable future, ie. millions of years.
What happened in 1998 was a simple geometrical curiosity, and nothing more. The Sun appears to follow a path around the sky due to the Earth orbiting around it. The circle around the sky is known as the ecliptic. The Milky Way appears as a band of stars around the sky and if you draw a line through the middle of this band, you have another circle around the sky, known as the galactic equator. This is a very simplified explanation. Jim Smith and I are currently preparing a page on it.
So you have two circles, inclined at about 60º to one another. On the ecliptic are four points, spaced at 90º intervals - the solstices and the equinoxes. These point gradually rotate around the sky due to precession of the Earth's axis. Twice during each precessional cycle, the equinoxes line up with the galactic equator. 6,450 years later, it's the turn of the solstices to line up. Another 6,450 years and it's the equinoxes again.
It just so happens that 1998 was the most recent solstice alignment. In real physical terms, it means nothing. It's like me claiming some importance in the fact that the pencil on my desk is pointing towards the Eiffel Tower. However, when you're trying to make a big deal out of a non-event such as 2012, you will latch on to anything. So this 'alignment' gets copied around from website to website, all authored by people who don't really understand it, and gets magnified into all sorts of nonsensical claims. Usually, the 14 year error in the date is conveniently forgotten. We get claims of a 'galactic alignment', such as:
The Sun will line up with the exact centre of the galaxy (it won't).
For the first time in 26,000 years, the solstice sun will align with the galactic equator (it won't).
The solar system will pass through the central plane of the galaxy (it won't).
The solar system will be 'in' the centre of the galaxy (it won't).
All these claims result from desperation on the part of 2012 doomsayers to cook up some sort of meaningful event for 2012, added to a lack of understanding of astronomy and an unwillingness to ever check up on simple facts.

snorks (guest) 31 Oct 2010 20:20

Thanks, I just wanted to make sure since my astronomy is rather rusty. I thought as much. What is happening is that these New Age types are taking simple things and casting meaning to them. Anyway, in her various books, she makes a big deal about this particular thing as pointing to 2012.

Curious as who started this idea. Since Harmonic Conversion was J.A.'s idea…. In my reading, I beginning to see that Hand Clow is a major promoter of these guys and their ideas. By giving them voice in publishing their books, she has pushed them out in front.

Astrogeek 01 Nov 2010 20:18

No problem. My astronomy is fairly rusty too… bikenbeer2000 is much better at it than I am.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

obaeyens 05 Nov 2010 01:31

I admit! I didn't know about the 33 million year cycle.
But does the sun actually have a periodic 33 million cycle?
Or do we have a more erratic orbit caused by gravity assists when we meet other stars or clusters of stars?

Natalie (guest) 12 Nov 2010 10:29

Just thought I would share this article with you -
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/06/whats_going_to_happen_when_the.php

Moo (guest) 12 Nov 2010 12:03

Yep, we know about all that. So, why did you post in that other thread with worries about going through it by 2012? Or did you not notice that little contradiction with Dr. LaViolette's crackpottery? xD

Natalie (guest) 12 Nov 2010 14:36

I was aware that we're probably not going to go through the galactic plane, but sometimes I have doubts when I come across these sort of comments, so I need further reassurance.

1 million of years - too much for us!

Tomy2011 24 Dec 2010 23:15

You are saying that every 33 million of years, the Solar System passes through the Galactic Plane. This period it's not regular, but a variation of 1 million of years (32/34 million of years) it's not too much for the Earth, but it would be too much for us. However, our Solar System movement is very regular.

Let's take an example:

The last time the Solar System passed through the Galactic Plane was 3 million of years ago.
The dinosaur extinction was 65 million of years ago (remember: 1 million has a very little value here)

3 million - 33million = 36 million of years ago, we passed through the Galactic Plane.
36 million - 33 million = 69 million of years ago. So, almost 65. But, of course, is just a speculation.
We can speculate, also, that the pass through the Galactic Plane was what provoke the meteor strike, that killed dinosaurs.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

Tomy2011 26 Dec 2010 04:13

Just especulative math, based on science facts.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

obaeyens 26 Dec 2010 13:15

We can speculate, also, that the pass through the Galactic Plane was what provoke the meteor strike

How exactly would passing through a galactic plane provoke a meteor strike on Earth?

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

UndeadxNurse 26 Dec 2010 21:59

How exactly would passing through a galactic plane provoke a meteor strike on Earth?

Maybe the galactic plane has a vengeful personality, kind of like kids playing in the lawn of an angry old man.

[Sarcasm]

Fact: Crossing the galactic plane can not provoke, or cause a meteor impact on Earth.

It's an ignorant suggestion.

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Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

Tomy2011 27 Dec 2010 01:36

However, the Galactic Plane article says:

Some have forwarded the idea that a passage through the galactic plane may trigger some extra bombardment.

…

Last edited on 14 Feb 2011 16:12 by Tomy2011 Show more

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

TheGreatJuju 27 Dec 2010 03:13

Tomy, the reason it says that is the same reason some have proposed a mass on the outer reaches of the solar system, similarly disturbing the Oort Cloud and hurling crap in our direction. That doesn't mean it can happen, let alone actually does. As noted on the Nemesis page, mass extinctions really aren't all the cyclic, so linking them to cosmic cycles remains, at best, a tenuous proposition.

The "regular" mass extinctions were never "regular" at all. In fact, there is really no periodicity to the data. Using much the same data that was available to Raup and Sepkoski, you get variance from the 26 million year cycles, with some occurring much sooner and others far longer than "average".

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Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

obaeyens 27 Dec 2010 12:56

Tommu1302, the galactic plane itself cannot do anything. We are in free fall around the galactic centre just like the ISS is in free fall around Earth. The ISS not does crash onto Earth when it crosses Earth's equator.

The crossing of the galactic plane is not a single event, the galactic plane is 1000 light-years thick, so it takes 1000 years at light speed to cross that disk. And the Sun is moving at only 220 km/s I believe.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

Tomy2011 27 Dec 2010 14:36

The crossing of the galactic plane is not a single event

Of course isn't a single event. Each 33 million of years, our Solar System passes through the Galactic Plane. The suggestion that the pass through the GP caused the meteor strike isn't really aceptable (we even know what killed the dinosaurs). However, 3 million of years ago, the Solar System passed through the GP. There wasn't humans on Earth. And, about 36 million of years ago, the Solar System passed through the GP, again. 36-33 = 69 million of years ago. The dinosaur extinction was about 65 million of years ago. "Just" 4 million of years of diference.

The science already knows how many years (33 million), approximately, the Solar System passes through the GP (this become even more popular on the last year). But don't know what are exactly the consequences of the passing through the GP or what killed the dinosaurs.
The meteor strike was a speculation (bad or not)…
I don't expect you believe me, although the math says that…

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

obaeyens 27 Dec 2010 16:45

Of course isn't a single event.

Then why is this related to 2012?

I don't expect you believe me, although the math says that…

Yes show me your maths!

Also give me your maths how you determined that the solar system passed through the Galactic plane.
Where are we now, where is the galactic plane, how fast do we move, how long did we travel through the galactic plane… Simple stuff like that.

I also want to see your maths how the galactic plane has influence on meteors striking Earth. Show us some numbers we can check.

Ok, I didn't said the Earth will pass through the Galactic Plane in 2012

Tomy2011 27 Dec 2010 18:03

Then why is this related to 2012?

I don't know. They are really stuped.

I also want to see your maths how the galactic plane has influence on meteors striking Earth.

I said that about 69 million of years ago the Earth passed through the GP, but, of course, both me with those numbers and the estimated dinosaurs extinction date. Anyway, pretty coincidence…

Show us some numbers we can check.

3 million of years ago, the Solar System passed through the GP. There wasn't humans on Earth. And, about 36 million of years ago, the Solar System passed through the GP, again. 36-33 = 69 million of years ago. The dinosaur extinction was about 65 million of years ago. "Just" 4 million of years of diference.

This math was based on the Galactic Plane article here (says that some cientists calculate that the Solar System pass through the GP every 33 million of years), Wikipedia and your references.
Just speculative math. It's not a regular sistem.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

bikenbeer2000 27 Dec 2010 18:16

It's been dealt with on the 2012hoax site here.
This reference says
"We find acceptable half-periods for the vertical oscillation that range from 26 to 37 Myr (including the range of periods that have been inferred from the terrestrial records on mass extinctions and on cratering), maximum heights above the plane from 49 to 93 pc, and an average phase jitter per half-period of the order of 6−9%."
Furthermore, this reference does find a correlation between extinctions and the oscillation of the solar system about the galactic plane, mainly because there is thought to be more debris floating about in that region.
Of course, this is nothing to do with 2012 except to debunk the suggestion that the solar system will pass through the galactic plane on that date. The first of the external references (above) shows that the most recent passage occurred anything up to 3 million years ago.

Last edited on 27 Dec 2010 18:18 by bikenbeer2000 Show more

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

Tomy2011 27 Dec 2010 21:04

Of course, this is nothing to do with 2012 except to debunk the suggestion that the solar system will pass through the galactic plane on that date.

Exactly! This phenomenon become more popular since the 2012 myth was created.
Dangerous or not, we are not going to pass through the Galactic Plane in 2012.

The first of the external references (above) shows that the most recent passage occurred anything up to 3 million years ago.

There was an extinction or not?
However, the biggest candidate for the big mass extinctions is Nemesis, every 27 million of years. Although the next mass extinction would be not in 2012…
Good luck.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

obaeyens 27 Dec 2010 22:12

Nemesis does not exist.

Re: 1 million of years - too much for us!

3WMElliott 27 Dec 2010 23:08

To be a tad more specific with obaeyens answer, for every hypothetical study that uses a Nemesis like object to explain something, you'll find another study which comes to the conclusion that such an object wouldn't actually explain something.

Good ol' i09 spoke a bit about it a while back

wow

theweatherman 24 Jan 2011 00:52

whoever comes up with these doesn't really do any research whatsoever . they just imagine it. seriously if this guy had done any research he would have been contradicted a million times over

Kidcruze (guest) 02 Jul 2011 16:37

I read this page but was still confused by the illustration to the upper right corner. Are we going to be at the center of the galactic disk in 2012?

bikenbeer2000 02 Jul 2011 17:01

No. You need to read what is says underneath:
A typical bogus illustration of "Crossing the Galactic Plane".

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