If you cant explain the fractal time theory better than this, at least link the Terence Mackenna explanations and give people the chance to judge by themselves.
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You say the I Ching doesn't predict anything, but I happen to be quite a big fan of the band Pink Floyd and they have a song recorded in 1967 called Chapter 24, based on text from the 24th chapter of the I Ching. And one of the lines is "The time is with the month of winter solstice, when the change is due to come…" I'm not saying I believe in it, but this to me seems to relate to 2012. Does anyone know more about this, or whether it's worth mentioning on the I Ching page?
Does the I Ching even have chapters? I thought it was a device of some sort. Not a book?
The I Ching is a process that evolved over thousands of years. It has been documented in book form. There are numerous translations, many of them not in agreement with each other. It is like an instruction book on how to consult it. There is a physical process involved.
Because bands haven't ripped off material before to make songs. This is NEWS!
…
Wait…
Regardless, the I Ching is also up to the whims of the reader to decide what exactly it's saying. Keep that in mind, which is /exactly what Pink Floyd did then/.
Oh please, not Terence McKenna. What a loon. He took parts of real science, from fields such as Fractals, Chaos Theory, Complexity, etc, and rolled them all together (with lots of drugs) to create one massive fruitcake-fest.
Fractals, Chaos Theory, etc, are absolutley fascinating subjects. It's a damn shame that whackos like McKenna (and Nassim Haramein also springs to mind) misunderstand and mis-apply them.
P.S. WHY are people talken in by these total fruitcakes? Is it just stupidity or is it something else? An averagely intelligent person upon reading McKenna's material will very quickly see it for the drivel that it is. How can anybody not?
Is it just stupidity or is it something else?
I'm going with stupidity.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
Maybe not stupidity but instinct. The part of our brain, the amygdala I think, was thought to be used in survival to always expect the worse is going to happen to prepare us. Making it easier for us to take in bad information and have trouble accepting that it's not going to happen.
Or not, I may have my facts completely wrong. Just a bit of input.
The part of our brain, the amygdala I think, was thought to be used in survival to always expect the worse is going to happen to prepare us.
Yes, it's called fear conditioning. According to Wikipedia, "it's a behavioral paradigm in which organisms learn to predict aversive events." Of course, fear is a natural process of the brain, but it is still something we can control.
It's hard to many people to understand and fight their fears, but it is possible and we have seen results in this forum.
Is there anyone out who really knows anything about the I Ching?? It is a method of Divination that has evolved throughout centuries and all it does is when consulted is to assess the forces that are in existence right now. Those forces are projected from the thoughts, feelings and actions of Human Beings, right now. They are the seeds of the future. All seeds grow, ripen and die.We create our Future everyday. Check out Quantum Physics!! Our minds and thoughts create our future.
Your post is simply a collection of new age babble.
It is a method of Divination that has evolved throughout centuries and all it does is when consulted is to assess the forces that are in existence right now.
Is there any point in me asking you to provide evidence of this claim?
Those forces are projected from the thoughts, feelings and actions of Human Beings, right now.
Or this one?
They are the seeds of the future. All seeds grow, ripen and die.
What in Gods name are you talking about?
Check out Quantum Physics!!
Why?
Our minds and thoughts create our future.
This is really the sort of post that sees me roll my eyes. I'm sure you're trying to make a point here, but for the life of me I can't figure out what it is.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
I can see it's a difficult one for you. I am 71 years of age and would hardly come under the banner of 'New Age'. I said check out Quantum Physics. That is a simple suggestion. Where is the problem? That is practical and shows that the Ancients knew about those things. I hope this helps. If your mind is closed, you will not learn.
I can see it's a difficult one for you.
That's because it makes absolutely no sense.
I am 71 years of age and would hardly come under the banner of 'New Age'.
So you're an older new age guy. Cool.
I said check out Quantum Physics. That is a simple suggestion. Where is the problem?
I want to know what it has to do with the I Ching, or 2012 for that matter.
That is practical and shows that the Ancients knew about those things.
Can you give me a specific example or am I going to have to learn everything about quantum physics?
I hope this helps.
Not even slightly.
If your mind is closed, you will not learn.
And if I open it too much my brain will fall out. Make a specific point here will you, I simply can't be bothered trying to decipher these vague words of yours into a coherent point.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
In any discussion sarcasm is not necessary. 'New Age' is just a concept in peoples minds and everybody has a slightly different slant on it.
Quantum Physics states that everything in the Universe is energy. That is one of its basic facts. That energy has an inbuilt intelligence and can be influenced by our thoughts and decisions.
Bring that to a logical conclusion and the mind boggles.
I have studied this type of everything for many, many years and it took a long long time to get a handle on lots of it. When I looked at the I Ching the first time I brought the book back; couldn't make head nor tail of it.
There is so much we don't know in this world and the 'smart' comment about 'your mind falling out' is rather juvenile. I am just trying to have a genuine discussion here.
In any discussion sarcasm is not necessary.
You're probably right, so why don't you start a discussion rather than throwing around random statements that make absolutely no sense?
'New Age' is just a concept in peoples minds and everybody has a slightly different slant on it.
My slant on it is that it's people who bring claims such as yours to the table who are 'new age.'
Quantum Physics states that everything in the Universe is energy. That is one of its basic facts. That energy has an inbuilt intelligence and can be influenced by our thoughts and decisions.
Yeah, see, just like that one. That has new age written all over it as far as I'm concerned. If you disagree then you'll have to tell me what your definition of 'new age' is.
There is so much we don't know in this world and the 'smart' comment about 'your mind falling out' is rather juvenile.
That is simply a saying. It's something like 'it's ok to have an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.' I think it's a great saying and so true when dealing with people who tell you to "open your mind." In my experience, "open your mind" translates to "just believe me god damn it!"
I am just trying to have a genuine discussion here.
Then you might want to take a step back and look at your own postings. Such as:
Is there anyone out who really knows anything about the I Ching??
I can see it's a difficult one for you.
If your mind is closed, you will not learn.
Call me touchy, but those posts really sound like someone who's questioning others intellect. So, are we going to have a pointless shoutfest or are you actually going to make a point that we can discuss? I've asked you to clear up exactly what you mean and what your point is, you're continuing to dance in a circle throwing around vague and meaningless statements.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
The random statements make no sense to you. Thats ok but it does not mean they are incorrect.
I still say 'New Age' is an expression of an idea. That does not make it true or real.
I am not making a claim about Quqntum Physics. I say you check it out. Why heed me?
As far as the open mind is concerned I am not asking you to believe me.I respect what your believe but how educated a belief is it. An open mind means open to knowledge of all kinds.
I will grant you that my comment 'Is there anyone out who really knows anything about the I Ching??' might not have been the most helpful and it would have been better not to use it.
'I can see it's a difficult one for you.' was a genuine comment of understanding.
Ok, time out. Maybe I owe you an apology, I'm a sarcastic tool at times and maybe I jumped the gun. Back on topic:
The random statements make no sense to you. Thats ok but it does not mean they are incorrect.
They don't make sense to me, which is why I'm asking you to be a bit more clear. "Check out quantum physics" tells me nothing.
I am not making a claim about Quqntum Physics. I say you check it out. Why heed me?
This-
Quantum Physics states that everything in the Universe is energy. That is one of its basic facts. That energy has an inbuilt intelligence and can be influenced by our thoughts and decisions.
is a claim about quantum physics, and it's a claim I'd like you to explain in detail please.
As far as the open mind is concerned I am not asking you to believe me.I respect what your believe but how educated a belief is it. An open mind means open to knowledge of all kinds.
My mind is open to claims backed by irrefutable evidence, and I don't have beliefs of any kind. Quantum physics in no way backs up the pseudoscience of the I Ching, and since you made the positive claim, the burden of proof lays firmly at your door I'm afraid.
An open mind means open to knowledge of all kinds.
Knowledge is fine, falsehoods, not so.
'I can see it's a difficult one for you.' was a genuine comment of understanding.
As I said I jumped the gun and I appologise, I saw your OP as a bit of an attack, wrongly, and got a bit defensive. My bad.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
Thank you for that. Its great, we have made some progress. I suppose the reason I said to check out Quantum Physics was because I have already explained what it says. It's not a claim. I honestly think that there is nothing irrefutable in this life. Life has taught me that. I see and speak only what is true. Lets take the I Ching out of the equation altogether. I was gobsmacked when i realised that the Ancient Chinese were really expressing part of the core of Quantum Physics; but so were Indians and Greeks. This is not this 'New Age' stuff. It's part of history.
There is a whole dimension that can never be logically proven. It's one I experience.
The mind has great problems with it because it is so simple.
I find this difficult to put into words because words are mindstuff and that is not where I am coming from. I hope I make some sense to you.
I suppose the reason I said to check out Quantum Physics was because I have already explained what it says.
No. You made a claim about a non-existent field called 'Quantum Physics' (which probably means "Quantum Mechanics") and have yet to supply any kind of support for that claim.
Your understanding of 'Quantum Physics' probably comes from other authors, whereas the equations of Quantum Mechanics come from physicists, and are (as Obaeyens said) are nearly 'pure math'.
You have yet to define 'Quantum Physics', and have yet to support your various claims about it.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
Quantum Physics states that everything in the Universe is energy. That is one of its basic facts. That energy has an inbuilt intelligence and can be influenced by our thoughts and decisions.
No where does quantum physics state that energy is intelligent and that can be influence by thoughts and decisions.
Also you are confusing the theory of relativity e=mc^2 with quantum mechanics.
I know and want to know nothing about the theory of relativity. I have never studied it. I suggest you check out Quqntum Physics yourself
There is no field of study called "Quantum Physics". Usually people who use this term are referring to "Quantum Mechanics" which is a theory of physics.
There are two major theories of physics that were developed in the 20th centry: General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.
General Relativity is the theory that relates matter to energy via the famous equation E = mc^2 , not Quantum Mechanics.
It appears that you are not very familiar with the theory that you claim supports your idea.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
I am not making a claim to support an idea. I do know what I am talking about even though I don't have your expert Scientific knowledge. We are on trains on two different tracks.
I am not making a claim to support an idea.
Actually, you did. In your original post you wrote:
Check out Quantum Physics!! Our minds and thoughts create our future.
That is a claim, and it appeals to 'Quantum Physics' for support. Now, I've already said that most people who use the term 'Quantum Physics' are referring to Quantum Mechanics, and I'll continue to assume you mean that. Please show support for the idea that 'Quantum Physics' (Quantum Mechanics) supports your claim that "Our minds and thoughts create our future.".
I am not a scientist, and I don't have 'expert Scientific knowledge'. What I am is very tired of nonsense claims being tied to scientific theories. Quantum Mechanics is not easily understood (and I don't claim to understand it at all, except at a very basic level). You might try reading this, for example.
As far as your original post, you entirely missed the point of the page. It does not attack the 'I Ching' per se (not because the I Ching is a valid way of modelling reality, but because this site is about debunking claims of a 2012 doomsday) but rather attacks the claim that the I Ching predicts anything about 2012.
The point of the page is that the I Ching can't predict anything about 2012. It's just a system. People make claims about 2012, and some of those people have claimed that the I Ching 'predicts' something for 2012. Those claims are nonsense.
Having said all of that, I don't consider the I Ching (or any other system of fortune-telling) to be an accurate way of modelling reality.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
Look, Joe, I understand what you are saying and how you would think that quantum mechanics agree with your idea's. You have been reading those books that tries to explain quantum mechanics in simple human terms. They try to expose the quantum oddities how strange they sound.
But the real quantum mechanics have no connection with this new age claims. These New age claims are made up by people that have no good understanding of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is pure maths and does not scale up to the human size.
I do bow to your greater knowledge. I honestly know nothing about the mechanics of Quantum Mechanics. I never studied it. But this 'New Age' tag I resent because it is only a tag with a person's own conceptual opinion which in reality does not exist. It exists only in the mind. I will need to change my vocabulary.
If you know nothing about it, then why do you keep invoking it to support your claims about how the I Ching works, what ancient mystics said, and everything is energy that we can control with our thoughts and feelings?
Dudes in big rubber suits are sometimes better than flashy CGI effects.
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http://twitter.com/#!/WolfBird324
It is not my job to disprove IChing or not (and yes I know IChing ;-)), only to tell you that quantum mechanics has nothing to do with it.
If you are interested in Quantum mechanics then you should watch the MIT courses like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piFmQGn6VXE&feature=relmfu Yes it is that hard. But if you have an engineer degree than you will be able to follow.
I do know that a lot of books exist about quantum mechanic and try to avoid the maths part and somehow try to translate the formula's into a human understandable model. But here is the failure, the scaling up into the human understandable metaphors are complete faulty.
Also realize that clips by michio kaku are basically borderline pseudo quackery. He uses a lot of wild claims about string theory and dimensions but in reality this is purely hypothetical and might not be real at all. I don'ty like him because he bring it up like it is already real while in reality he sucks it out of his thumb.
I would just love to hear more about a single ancient culture delving into the world of quantum physics, because the closest I can think of right now is the Greeks giving us the word 'atom', and mankind then having to wait a few thousand years to understand not only what an atom was, but that there actually were atoms in the first place.
And atoms might as well be the tip of the iceberg for quantum physics, so as I say, I would love to hear something tangible on that claim, rather than new agey hand waving - you might not ascribe yourself as new age, but passing off the ancients as understanding quantum physics sure does sound new agey.
I didn't say that the Ancients delved into Quantum Physics. Quantum Physics is proving now what was said thousands of years go. Is the glass half full or half empty?
I didn't say that the Ancients delved into Quantum Physics.
I said check out Quantum Physics. That is a simple suggestion. Where is the problem? That is practical and shows that the Ancients knew about those things.
With the way that's written, I define 'those things' to mean 'Quantum Physics'. If that isn't the case, what are 'those things' that the ancient cultures of the world supposedly knew about?
Quantum Physics is proving now what was said thousands of years go.
No, otherwise we would have evidence of Greeks discovering atomic theory and maybe Indians wondering about String theory. Instead, we have Greeks going "What if 'stuff' is made of teeny tiny bits of 'stuff'?" and the Indians developing some numeral systems.
So again, I'd love to hear something tangible. with regards to that claim. "Quantum Physics proves it" doesn't tell any of us what you define "it" to be. Apparently the "it" the ancients discussed is obvious to you, so you should be able to provide even a single "it" which we can investigate to see if it was the early murmurings of Quantum Physics.
Easy task if you're confident there is such an "it" that Quantum Physics proves, no?
Is the glass half full or half empty?
Twice as big as it needs to be.
I would suggest that you study the I Ching for years and the relevant parts of Quantum Physics as well as all the texts on Ancient mystics etc. There is no way that I can prove anything to you in this situation. It is way too involved and complex.
This is not me being sarcastic, just realistic.
What makes you think we do not understand quantum mechanics?
You most likely understand Quantum Mechanics much better than I do. Maybe my wires are crossed. It is still way too complex to discuss here.
Stop trying to worm your way out of the burden of proof. Provide proof for your claims regarding quantum mechanics and the I Ching or stop spouting nonsense. I would think that your claim that 'quantum mechanics states everything is energy' would be easy enough to provide a citation for. Of course, good luck finding a scientific citation for it since actual science doesn't state that at all.
Dudes in big rubber suits are sometimes better than flashy CGI effects.
http://www.last.fm/user/WolfBird324
http://rantingsofawolfbird.tumblr.com
http://twitter.com/#!/WolfBird324
The I Ching and even Quantum Physics isn't the point here, I asked for one single sample of what the ancients (any ancients) have said that is directly supported by modern physics.
If the only proof is to use vague language and interpret, say, multiple dimensions of space as different realms of energy or something, then the statement 'Quantum Physics is proving now what was said thousands of years ago' is absurd.
I'm looking for a single proof - your strongest, ideally - that supports that statement.
Quantum Physics is proving now what was said thousands of years go
No, it isn't. Quantum mechanics is about the mechanics of the atomic world, i.e., electrons and sub-atomic particles. It has nothing to do with astrology, predicting the future, 'energy fields' and certainly not how the I Ching 'works'. You're just appealing to quantum physics to try to explain how it works.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
If quantum physics explains how it works, then please demonstrate this, not just say it does. Provide a citation that demonstrates quantum physics is proving what was said thousands of years ago, and how it does so. Until you do, your claim has no legs.
Dudes in big rubber suits are sometimes better than flashy CGI effects.
http://www.last.fm/user/WolfBird324
http://rantingsofawolfbird.tumblr.com
http://twitter.com/#!/WolfBird324
"The time is with the month of winter solstice, when the change is due to come…" I'm not saying I believe in it, but this to me seems to relate to 2012.
Yeah. Does this chapter mention 2012? Because I'm not seeing any date. And every year we have winter solstices. So, why 2012?
Actually, "I Ching" is the sound of cash registers as 2012 scammers rake in money from the gullible.
I consult the I Ching for friends and family or anyone who wants it and I never charge any money. It is a privilege to do so. I use the Yarrow Stalk method with real Yarrow Stalks which was used 4000 years ago and not the 'modern' 3 coin flip which most of the money makers use. It is not accurate.
Isn't the I Ching based entirely on interpretation of the results anyway, such that 'accuracy' can only be applied to yourself, producing the same interpretation whenever the same results come out of the ether or whatever term best describes randomness?
I will qualify the statement - it is not 'as' accurate. The forces that are determined in the I Ching show the situation as it is now. That is a given. The wording etc can be interpreted as it can be so vague but the movements are constant now. Not an easy one to call. The three coins do not give the same fine tuning as the Yarrow Stalks. One number out can change the whole meaning of the Hexagram, giving a different line.
It is not accurate.
No form of prophecy is accurate in the statistical sense of the word.
True. I will qualify the statement - it is not 'as' accurate.
True. I will qualify the statement - it is not 'as' accurate.
Then you will have to show that there is a difference in the measured success rate between two methods, neither of which can be shown to be statistically better than pure guesswork.
I don't believe that's possible.
You are into mind stuff. We are dimensions apart. As you don't believe its possible I suggest if you want to know the difference you will have to research it yourself.
You are into mind stuff. We are dimensions apart. As you don't believe its possible I suggest if you want to know the difference you will have to research it yourself.
"I'm right and you're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why! Na na na na na!"
I honestly do not know what you are talking about.
Joe;
The rules are: You make a claim, you support the claim. Failure to support your claim may result in sarcastic mocking. Telling us to do our own research is not the same thing as you supporting your claim.
I think JuJu's response is fairly mild (for him) but accurately restates the portion of your post that he quoted. You appear to be diligently avoiding providing support for your claims, or even showing that you understand what you are talking about.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
Sorry about that. I am not doing too well in this proving claims bit. To mention Quantum Physics was a big mistake on my part. I accept that; to tie it in with my knowledge of the I Ching was a bigger one.
As I said we are on different trains, on different tracks and most likely heading to different Stations. I do thank you for teaching me a valuable lesson.
I have read a lot about Quqntum Physics but seemingly, I don'd know!!. I will now get my horse and ride into the sunset with my tail tucked in between my legs.
The thing is if you want to explain IChing then you should not use quantum mechanics, because the basis of quantum mechanics used in the New age stuff is based in BS.
In order to understand why it is BS, you need dig into the maths part of quantum mechanics.
The real quantum mechanics have nothing that you will find back in IChing.
Lol funny
No man knows the day nor the hour when the world will end.
Become a debunker and help out those that are being fed up with lies spread by False scientists going after you'r money.
Practice what you want to and dont give up on you'r dreams my dream is to become a basketball player 'NBA'
Did this book really make a reference to the winter solstice?
Only if you apply the idea of the Winter Solstice to it in the first place. It's still all down to your interpretation of whatever it is you're reading, sort of like tarot cards in a sense (the Death card doesn't mean you're about to die). So you can make the I Ching predict or show the winter solstice, but it doesn't inherently talk about the winter solstice, if that makes sense.
I am a chinese.I researched 2012.On this matter,You said these ideas I'd agree.
However,You have no comment on our 《Tui bei tu》,From Wikipedia you can look.
In our here,little scientists say in this book have dope out the end of the world is December 21.
I don't know if you noticed it.
Read a little about it just then, I see no mention of 2012.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
What is this thing ? Is there mentioned in a book about the ending of the world 21 des. ? It keeps coming more claims and I am getting more scared. Sorry, cant help it..
The above poster seems to be implying that there is a prediction in an ancient Chinese book that pertains to the world ending on December 21st. I searched for such a prediction or any mention of it, and could find none. So unless they return with a link or something, it just looks like another empty claim.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.