watch these videos and debunk
(account deleted) 27 Apr 2010 03:09
http://www.timeline2012.net/index.php/en/timeline-2012/timeline-2012-videos
what do you agree and disagree?
watch these videos and debunk
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» watch these videos and debunk
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http://www.timeline2012.net/index.php/en/timeline-2012/timeline-2012-videos
thanks
(account deleted) 27 Apr 2010 03:09
Well, I've watched the first video and about half of the second.
Stein appears to be unfamiliar with current geophysical theories regarding the earth's magnetic field. His description of the generation of the earth's magnetic field is wildly incorrect, but entertaining.
Stein compares the generation of a magnetic field in the earth to a spinning iron object, stating that that is how the magnetic field is generated. He neglects several facts, such as the 'iron object' (e.g., the core of the earth) is too hot to generate a magnetic field, regardless of whether it spins, and that you can spin an iron bar or disk all day long at very high RPMs and not generate a magnetic field at all. Otherwise I could pick up nails with a spinning drill bit.
You might be able to generate a small electrical current in a spinning disk as it interacts with the magnetic field of the earth, but that will be fairly small.
In magnetism the "right hand rule" Stein cites applies to an electrical current moving through the wire (along the direction of the thumb) which creates rotating magnetic field lines around the wire (curling in the direction of the fingers).
I thought the part where he dismissed 'global warming' on the basis of one chart of ice core data to be indicative of his level of research.
There's no way I'm going to wade through 16 videos of this nonsense.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
At 2:29 into the third video he claims that the solar system passes "the galactic equator" every 25,630 years. This is the approximate period of the general precession of the axis of the earth, but his description has to do with the solar system passing through the galactic plane, a completely different event that happens about every 30 million years or so, and which last occurred about 3 million years ago.
So, we can add basic astronomy to the list of things that Stein gets wrong.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
I'm tired of the videos now… the nonsense just gets thicker and thicker, and nowhere does he provide any references to his source material.
I found http://www.timeline2012.net/index.php/en/prepare/cosmic-event which contains several outright fabrications (the great red spot is rotating in the opposite direction? Since when?) and misconceptions.
Here's one example paragraph:
There are also ancient references to collisions and near misses between rogue objects and planets within our solar system. One such reference involves Mars, Venus, and what is commonly known as PlanetX or Niburu. The reference speaks of a cosmic entity (Niburu) that passed close to Mars on its way through the solar system. It apparently got so close to Mars that it created a vacuum that sucked the atmosphere from Mars as it passed by the planet. These same references speak of a new planet being created in our solar system as a result of this cosmic event. They named this new planet “Venus”.
No references, although he might be referring to Sitchin's literary excrement.
Regardless, Stein is very, very confused, and very, very wrong.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
may I ask are you a scientist or ?
No.
Do I need to be a scientist to point out that the Great Red Spot is still rotating in the same direction it has been since it was discovered?
Do I need to be a scientist to say that he has confused an apparent alignment with the galactic equator with a passage through the galactic plane?
Do I need to be a scientist to say that when you spin an iron object you do not generate a magnetic field?
I am an amateur astronomer, not a scientist. There are scientists who frequent these forums, however, and if one of them weighs in, I am sure that they will also say that Ivan Stein doesn't know what he is talking about.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
what about this MP3 of Dr Deagle interviewed by Project Camelot, any serious info from him?
I can't get that file to open. I did, however, look up Dr. Bill Deagle and found that he is a medical doctor. I don't know what claims he is making, but if they are about astronomical or geological occurrences, he would have no more knowledge of these things than any layman.
OK, I'm not more than 15 minutes in and I've heard the following assertions which are erroneous:
1) We've all "signed up to be here" at this place and time in the universe
2) Earthquakes and vulcanism occurs in cycles.
3) it takes 26000 years to rotate around the galaxy
4) every 11500 years there is a magnetic reversal
5) reversals are accompanied by increased vulcanism and earthquakes which eventually trigger ice ages
6) The mayans talked about this
7) ice ages every 5000 years.
8) volcanoes and earthquakes are plasma events
9) the universe is electric
10) snakes crawled out of the ground before an earthquake in china
11) Aerial plasma discharges called "earthquake lights" occur before earthquakes.
12) HAARP is a scalar weapon designed to create earthquakes.
13) It operates by creating an interferometry field to cause earthquakes.
14) creates vibrations in the rocks which are a harmonic of the natural frequency of the rocks.
15) earthquakes above 6.0 are increasing in number.
16) San Andreas fault runs all the way to Baha California
17) A convergence of cycles (solar cycles, precession, and planet X) occurs in 2012
18) PX is an incoming dwarf star below the ecliptic (between juipter and the asteroid belt)
19) WISE satellite is monitoring "Planet X"
20) Approaching from the constellation Scorpio
21) Only visible in infrared or x-ray
That's all I can stand for one session. All of these claims are wrong, and are so wrong that someone with a basic understanding of astronomy and physics (like me) can see the problems.
1) I never signed up to be anywhere. This claim appears to come from some kind of belief in reincarnation or something.
2) There is no demonstrated cycle to earthquakes or vulcanism. Nowhere in the geologic record is there a "signature" of cyclical activity that I am aware of. Perhaps Deagle can point us to the journal article which claims that there is a cyclical component?
3) Deagle used the words "rotate around the galaxy" to describe precession. This is a common error. It takes something between 225 and 250 million years for our solar system to complete one galactic year. Precession is the slow, circular movement of the axis of the earth against the background of stars, and has nothing to do with our solar system completing a rotation around the galaxy.
That's all for now, my laptop battery is dying.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
Astrogeek, kudos I hope you're right?
Hi Astro
according to 2012hoax , there won't be pole shift nor magnetic shift
what about this?
http://www.poleshift2011.com/
http://www.ec2011.com/
something will occur in Oct/2011 ?
what about this?
Those sites are furthering some of the very claims debunked on this site. So what about them?
Just another couple of typical conspiracy websites. The first is an anonymous person (aren't they all) trotting out a list of things that they say will happen and failing to provide any supporting evidence (the NASA links are either irrelevant or out of date). The other site is a discussion board where doomsday nuts can exchange crackpot ideas with other nuts. Nothing here should be taken seriously.
Back to the first site. Approach of Nibiru, pole shift, unusual weather patterns, government cover-up, blah blah blah. It's all been done before. Have a look at this site from 1999 telling us how Nibiru would cause devastation in 2003: http://www.rense.com/ufo5/nib2000.htm
They all seem so convinced by their own nonsense, don't they?
when the last time the flood occured about 11500 years ago? don't you think there is a cycle every 12 000 years, are we overdue?
By "the flood" I assume that you mean the references to the worldwide flood in the Bible.
I hope you are aware that there is zero evidence of a global flood 11500 years ago, or ever.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
so the flood didn't sink Atlantis? it was a myth?
Yes. Atlantis is a myth. There's no evidence of a 12,000 year cycle of flooding either.
for some reason wikidot is not allowing me to reply to kopenhagen's most recent post, so I'm tagging along on Bikenbeer2000's instead.
The Atlantis story had nothing to do with a "flood", but rather Plato's description had it sinking beneath the sea as a result of an earthquake.
There is still much debate as to the intent of the story… Plato may have intended it to be a history, or he may have intended it to be fiction, or he may have intended it to be a parody by which he poked fun at the Egyptians (to whom he attributes the original story). According to some scholars it is only in modern times that Atlantis was taken seriously as a history by some people, especially by people like de Bourbourg, Thompson and Le Plongeon (who suggested that the story may have been rooted in ancient contact with mesoamerican cultures) and by "New Age" writers such as Donnelly, Blavatsky, Steiner, and Cayce, who dispensed with all of that pesky evidence, and essentially made up stuff about Atlantis.
The story of Atlantis may be rooted in real events (such as the eruption of the volcano Thera on the island of Santorini), but the idea of a sunken continent under the Atlantic is complete myth.
The idea of a global flood is also a complete myth, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Atlantis story. "Noah's Flood" was most likely a regional flood in Mesopotamia, although some have suggested that the post ice-age back-flooding of the Black Sea may have been the source of the legend.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
how come they've discovered Noah's Ark N.E of Turkish mountain mount Ararat?
http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=noah+ark+found&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=POjlS5elC5L-M6imyIYI&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDkQsAQwAw
That isn't Noah's ark. The Durupinar hoax was started by a man named Ron Wyatt (who had no credentials, btw). Like so many other piles of trash, it's made the rounds on the Internet over the years. Wyatt is notorious for having made numerous "discoveries" that turned out to be … well, wishful, to put it nicely.
I made a few YouTube videos about this Durupinar thing two or three years ago. There are many reasons why that particular formation is not "Noah's ark." Of particular note is why, oh why, are there many other similar formations on that same hillside? That specific feature was singled out simply because it could be loosely connected to the inexact dimensions of the alleged ark (in cubits) given in Genesis. Also, Wyatt and his team used a pseudo-scientific instrument tantamount to a dowsing rod to "learn" the "shape" of the "object" buried there.
Not even the young-earth creationists at Answers in Genesis believe Wyatt's claim:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i4/report.asp
Never mind that the flood tale is impossible, so it's silly to even go looking for such an ark in the first place.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.skepdic.com/noahsark.html
While Googling "Noah's ark found," it might behoove you to also Google "Noah's ark debunked," just for comparison.
Really, all that aside, this has nothing to do with 2012, though this talk about Atlantis and mythical floods does offer some telling insight into your general thinking.
it does connect with 2012, there will be some disaster in Oct/2011 and not 2012, stay tuned
I find it to be amusing that every site that this person has posted is associated with some sort of conspiracy theorist and emo-kid paranoid delusional bullshit.
I'm not sure if any of you remember, or heard about, but someone mentioned (mid-2009) that in 2010 (this year) there would be a disaster, now that 2010 is here, they've bumped it to 2011, 2011 will come and it will be 2012, 2012 will come and then it will be 2013.
I'd gladly find one of these idiots and bitch-slap them hard enough to dislocate their jaw, but in the end, I would only hurt my pretty little hand.
Kopenhagen (-K +C) means Merchants Harbor. In case no one caught that highly ironic name mixed with the psycho-babble bullshit of a coming disaster.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
it does connect with 2012,
Repeating yourself isn't an argument.
there will be some disaster in Oct/2011 and not 2012, stay tune
There are disasters each and every year and probably always will be.
Do you have any evidence for the cataclysm prophesied by your source (ET_Man <— lulz), or are you just repeating yourself because you can't respond to any of the arguments you've received? Seriously, read back over this thread and tell me if you actually believe you've countered anyone's rebuttals to your claims. I could just save you a bit of time here and let you know that you haven't even offered, probably because you know your "sources" are crackpots.
Case in point, ATS is a notorious woo-woo site that places hoopla over science. Can you point to even one piece of evidence of your claims in that thread or the included videos? No, you can't. Do you know why? The person who started that thread is yanking your chain, and you fell for it.
ET_Man wrote: "I am in the same density as everyone on this planet but am from another time in which I cannot share anything further."
That dude is nothing but a John Titor wannabe, and he's probably cackling with his dorm roommate at people like you, who take his crap seriously. His post is absolutely meaningless, but you aren't looking for evidence. You're looking for something to support a belief that you already hold, so you lap up anything puked onto the Web if it even remotely reinforces your ideas, no matter how ridiculous.
un****nurse, did I predict anything in 2009? ******* idiot,ignorant
(edit by Astrogeek: Kopenhagen; we encourage open and free debate. However this site is regularly read by children, so I do not allow that kind of language)
you name yourself the Great what?
there is no enough proof for skeptic people
Et_man has nothing to do with j Titor
ATS is wannabee? is there where I've found out the truth about anything, you need to be open minded
I have one question for you, do you believe in Project Camelot mission and his whistleblowers?
Isn't Project Camelot the same source that published the claims by the "unnamed but legitimate Norwegian government official" who claimed Nibiru was real and he and the rest of the Norwegian government knew about it, and that it would be visible by the world over, at any time of the day or night, by May 15, 2009? (These claims were originally published in late 2007/early '08)…. I guess they've moved on to greener pastures, without ever admitting their source was wrong.
There's a difference between open-mindedness and gullibility. I'm open to plenty of non-mainstream ideas and claims, even believing a fair amount of conspiracies myself, but that's after examining the sourcework…. Not going by what gets posted on a Conspiracy forum, to an audience so blindingly desperate to believe.
*By the way, I'm a regular troll on GodLikeProductions.com, and I've posted similar threads. Most use cognitive dissonance to ignore me, others…. others well, give me little hope in humanity rising above an "Idiocracy" status
In a word, "yes".
The whole title of the website screams 'conspiracy theory' too. "Project Camelot" was going to be the U.S. Army's attempt at using sociology to covertly influence the affairs of a foregin country. It was cancelled before it was ever implemented. Accounts vary as to how the project was discovered, some say that one of the professors 'blew the whistle'. So, the conspiracy nuts have co-opted the title to indicate that whatever they can dredge up is "evidence" of their varied theories.
Find someone who says he was involved in some black-ops project, that he saw plans for something, somewhere, a long time ago, and 'poof' you have an instant conspiracy.
I don't "trust" the government… but I don't believe these nutjobs either.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
you name yourself the Great what?
The Great Juju, and you may address me as such. ;)
there is no enough proof for skeptic people
It's so funny when people offer absolutely no evidence in support of crackpot claims, then accuse anyone who won't believe them of closed-mindedness.
Et_man has nothing to do with j Titor
Maybe not, but he's certainly taken one from the official John Titor Playbook. The modus operandi is virtually identical.
ATS is wannabee?
No, ATS is "a notorious woo-woo site." ET_Man is the wannabe, specifically a John Titor wannabe, and he and his roommate are probably still laughing at you.
is there where I've found out the truth about anything
I can't say there isn't a shred of truth somewhere on ATS, but I can say that most of what's there is hysterical crap. If there's some relevant "truth" you gleaned from that particular site, then please, by all means, share it with this forum. Please note that "truth claims" are not the same thing as "truth."
do you believe in Project Camelot mission and his whistleblowers?
I don't "believe" anyone who doesn't present testable, falsifiable evidence and/or logical arguments for his or her claims. Project Camelot is notable for routinely failing to produce either.
The rambling nonsense of a child-like doomsayer is ever so slightly amusing.
I'm going to try the doomsayer's method of proving something… I'll go to court with a claim, but absolutely no valid evidence. I wonder how long I'll last..
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
you think ET_Man has no life?, he just made fun of us by creating this thread?
he has nothing to sell, he spent a lot of times in responding to many questions ,he just warned about the future event, it's up to you to use yr own discernment, if I was him I wouldn't spend too much time just to make fun of people, would you? I wait until July/2011 if we'll see any "signals" before you can discredit him
As for Project Camelot, the only thing I disagree is Nibiru, since it doesn't exist, the rest , I can assure you that the majority people they interview, used to work for the government past or present.Probably only place on the internet you can learn the truth.
you think ET_Man has no life?
I never said that, and I wouldn't know.
he just made fun of us by creating this thread?
I do think that, yes.
he has nothing to sell, he spent a lot of times in responding to many questions
His responses have been in the same mystical tone as his original post. It's quite obvious he's having a blast at your expense.
he just warned about the future event
Yes, a time traveler come to warn the woo-woo crowd of impending doom. Like we haven't heard that one before….
it's up to you to use yr own discernment
I discern a John Titor wannabe who is likely tickled pink at the reaction he has received.
if I was him I wouldn't spend too much time just to make fun of people, would you?
I wouldn't, but you must be new to the Internet if you think there aren't people who would. I've seen nasty, insult-driven arguments drag on for weeks over video games. A dude who makes a crackpot conspiracy post on a crackpot conspiracy board has every motivation to continue the charade, so long as there are people giving him attention. That's all he wants anyway, most likely.
I wait until July/2011 if we'll see any "signals" before you can discredit him
There's no need to discredit someone who makes wild assertions without evidence. He's already discredited himself.
the rest , I can assure you that the majority people they interview, used to work for the government past or present.
Forgive me, but I seriously doubt that, and your assurances mean nothing. In any event, a source having worked for the government at some point doesn't make that source's information true. Sensationalism is a lucrative enterprise, even if the "profit" is restricted to attention or a sense of revenge.
Probably only place on the internet you can learn the truth.
Again, please note that "truth claims" are not the same thing as "truth."
Ed Dames worked for the government too. In 1995 he went on Coast to Coast, making assertions that he saw the future and that the Hale Bopp comet would destroy a significant part of the Earth and the population of Earth would be nothing but ashes before the year 2000…. I wonder how that's working out for him….Eh, nevermind, now he can't see past 2012. Ah well, second time's a charm.
I hate this feature I can't highlight your post and reply to it
FYI, every week someone comes to ATS forum and claims I'm a God messenger or ET messenger etc, guess what his or her thread went straight to the Skunk work, it means ATS mods Are not that stupid not to see any trolls running around …
Et_man thread has been here nearly a year and it's still going, if anyone doubts about his credibility, he'll be sent to "SKUN WORK" lol, check out what is it in ATS lol
I hate this feature I can't highlight your post and reply to it
You can quote someone in a block (as I do with your statements) like this:
>> Quotation you want to respond to goes here......FYI, every week someone comes to ATS forum and claims I'm a God messenger or ET messenger etc, guess what his or her thread went straight to the Skunk work
Most trolls are utterly blatant about it, and nobody takes the bait. I'm sure such threads are routinely moderated, because they're a dime a dozen on woo-woo sites and get in the way of the real fun. That said, there are plenty that don't get trashed. Just because the mods leave some weirdo's ranting, that doesn't make it true. If the mods actually cared about credibility or truth, as you imply, then most of the content at ATS would be in "Skunk Work." Alas, madness is actually encouraged there, and critical thinking is maligned. This I know.
it means ATS mods Are not that stupid not to see any trolls running around …
It's not a matter of them seeing trolls. It's whether they do anything about it. ET_Man is obviously full of crap, but he's getting attention. Win-win situation: he gets what he wants, and ATS gets views. For all you know, ET_Man could be a moderator with a sock account. You aren't dealing with a community that values critical thinking, logic, evidence or accurate reporting.
Et_man thread has been here nearly a year and it's still going
As long as he's getting attention, I'm not surprised. There are a few woos and fundies on YouTube who have been sniping at me for over two years.
if anyone doubts about his credibility, he'll be sent to "SKUN WORK"
If no one doubts the credibility of someone claiming to be a time traveler with a deliberately vague doomsday message, it's pretty obvious that nothing will cause that doubt. Of course, at ATS, that isn't saying much.
lol, check out what is it in ATS lol
You seem to be assuming I'm unfamiliar with ATS. On the contrary, sir or madam, I'm quite familiar with it and how it operates. I've long considered starting a blog dedicated to debunking certain threads there, but I've been too occupied elsewhere to get around to it, and I'm not sure what use it would be anyway. For example, your claims have been thoroughly handled in this thread, but rather than amend your thinking, all you've done is grow hostile. I don't rightly know why I'm continuing to respond to you, in fact.
Quick!!! Stop responding before the ignorance begins to rub off on you like a contagious virus!
Those who are like "Kopenhagen", only amuse me, due to the simple fact that a stoned monkey can make better claims and produce more evidence than people like "Kopenhagen".
By the way, I'm eating cereal and it's magically delicious.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
It's not a matter of them seeing trolls. It's whether they do anything about it. ET_Man is obviously full of crap, but he's getting attention.
this is your opinion, this is not true, ATS is well moderated, please start a full crap , wait and see how long it stays there before being sent to skun work?
I'm looking for a logical,critical thinking and not ranting,from what I've seen, you seem to be very skeptic also how people can bring evidence if the event never occured in the past? this is open minded,just wait and see.
I doubt most of the topics deserved to be "skun work"
this is your opinion, this is not true
It's a fact. You yourself bragged a post or two up about how the thread has survived for a year.
ATS is well moderated
Many sites are. Woo-woos in general have a vested interest in keeping a close eye on things.
please start a full crap , wait and see how long it stays there before being sent to skun work?
Someone who will fall for a guy claiming to be a time traveler with a doomsday message will fall for just about anything. The problem is, most people can't write convincing fiction. This, like I said before, gets in the way of the real fun when someone like ET_Man or John Titor comes along.
I'm looking for a logical,critical thinking and not ranting
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. I assume you mean you look for logic and critical thinking, but that obviously isn't true since you're lapping up the words of the mystical ET_Man like a dog over a pool of antifreeze.
from what I've seen, you seem to be very skeptic
You say that like it's a bad thing.
also how people can bring evidence if the event never occured in the past?
Someone who claims to travel through time can present all kinds of evidence. John Titor tried. Of course, not only has he been debunked, but his "predictions" have been falling on their face for nearly a decade. That's the problem with woo-woos, 2012 doomsayers and others presenting "evidence": it tends to get shredded. However, if no evidence is available for a proposition, then there's no compelling reason to believe it, with exception to individuals like yourself who desperately want to, which is just silly.
In any case, your little ET_Man is just a copy-cat.
this is open minded,just wait and see.
No, that isn't open-minded. It's foolish. Maybe you've heard the saying, "Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out."
I doubt most of the topics deserved to be "skun work"
I have no doubt that they do. I challenged you above: "If there's some relevant 'truth' you gleaned from that particular site [ATS], then please, by all means, share it with this forum." Of course, you haven't bothered. Indeed, hunting down sound evidence for claims on woo boards is a needle-in-haystack scenario, for sure.
first of all it's not about 2012 doomsday but Oct/2011
someone who trolls nearly a year maybe more until 10/2011 must have a lot of patience and diligence, he replied to many questions and emails from hundred people, wow what a troll and ATS let him do it,kudos
then please, by all means, share it with this forum." Of course, you haven't bothered
do some research on ATS
-do you know that the Greys and Reptilians are among us?
-the US government has been in contact with different types of Alliens?
-1 Of the 3 reasons why JFK was killed? he didn't want to sign the treaty with E.T made by MJ 12
-and many more..
first of all it's not about 2012 doomsday but Oct/2011
I'm aware of that, and I never stated otherwise. It's also irrelevant.
someone who trolls nearly a year maybe more until 10/2011 must have a lot of patience and diligence
Welcome to the Internet, kid.
he replied to many questions and emails from hundred people, wow what a troll and ATS let him do it,kudos
ATS has received tons of views thanks to ET_Man. You do realize that ATS is ad-supported, don't you? They have every reason to let him continue, no matter how ridiculous his claims.
do some research on ATS
I ask for "truth," and you can't provide it. But you confidently tell me to "do some research," followed by assertions about aliens, reptilian humanoids and JFK. Wow. You don't have any idea what truth and evidence are, do you? Maybe you missed the part where I mentioned wanting to start a blog debunking ATS threads. I'm amply familiar with what goes on there, and there is no evidence of aliens, reptilians or the affiliation of either with JFK.
I can't entertain this stupidity any longer. I do hope you grow up one day. Goodbye, kopenhagen.
why should I provide more proof? you don't even believe,
it's not because you don't believe in E.T or you have not seen them it means they don't exist
what an ignorant
I find it to be very difficult to believe anyone who would call themselves "E.T." or "K/Copenhagen" (literally meaning Merchants Harbor) and furthermore it's very difficult to even begin to assert a belief into something that has absolutely no physical evidence to support the claims that are being asserted.
A Five year old says that her imaginary friend is real. Should I believe it just because she says so?
Idiotic and needless to say, childish assertions without any evidence to support their claims isn't worth anyone's time to even try to believe.
For example, I'll say that a giant pink elephant orbits our Earth and is visible ONLY in infrared, but provide no evidence. Would you believe that? If you wouldn't, then you're a hypocrite, if of course I'm to follow your logic.
Show hard evidence, don't Google up a random image, don't photoshop an image, don't even take a picture of some random star. Show evidence to support your exact claims and then we may be able to discuss it in a more serious manner.
Until then, it's simply the rambling of an idiot who I can't take serious.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
Hi UndeadxNurse,
I'm human occupying a vehicle/body/vessel just like the rest of everyone-1.
Earth Changes will come in one-1 form or another and it's not a matter of IF but When.
I'm never after the materialistic things of the world, praise, popularity, fame, riches and so on.
The message I share is with the utmost sincerely and with the best intentions, it's very fundamental/basic really.
It's about overcoming the fear of doom and gloom, it's about coming to a realization of who and what everyone-1 truly is being Infinite/Eternal.
It's about LOVE and the basic fundamentals of living one-1's life to the best of one-1's ability in the best way they know how.
Regardless of what can possibly happen in the future it should make zero difference to a person that has found peace in coming to the realization that Death is Life and Life is Death and all things are Eternal and will live on forever.
One-1 must live each day to the best of one-1's ability and in the best way they know how. One-1 must make amends with everyone around them, do good unto others, have unconditional love and forgiveness in their heart. Always hope/wish/desire for good things and for the best possible outcome for everybody and in all things.
It's the INTENT of one-1's heart that truly counts.
In regards to Earth changes, Wars on the planet, suffering, starvation, Misc threats there are many things that someone could fear or worry about and death as everyone-1 already knows is an inevitability and will eventually come for all according to the human definition
/understanding of death.
There is nothing to fear regardless of what could ever happen if one-1 is prepared soul-wise to face and meet all things. One-1 must focus on that which is Eternal and that which a soul can take with them in the afterlife.
But before one-1 can find such peace and overcome their fears they need to come to the realization of who and what they truly are and find that truth out for themselves.
I'm simply sharing what I've been shown/remember/know and desire to help my brothers and sisters on the planet.
We are all family in spirit with equal opportunity, no greater or lesser one-1 to another. Nobody is more special or better than another.
I'm not on a mission or anything like that, nor was I ever asked to do what I do. I simply choose to do what I do of my own freewill/choice because I sincerely and genuinely only want to help people.
If you're looking for evidence on Coming Earth changes of and cyclic events there is evidence to a certain level/degree.
I found this discussion and simply wanted to let you know that I genuinely do have good intentions at heart.
http://comingearthchanges.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2
Love & Peace
Respectfully
Best Wishes!
A stirring work of fiction if ever there was one. Actually, I exaggerate. It's not that good.
Oh, and I see you linked to another fictional narrative of sorts to supplement your own. The assertions are put forth with such conviction (lots of "!"), it's almost possible to think that the author actually believes them.
All we have is information, in the end no one is an expert or qualified, keep that in mind.
We can only research the information passed down in every sector, being: science, astronomy, medicine, spiriutal etc…
The only reason we say one thing is right and another isn't depends on a majority rule scenario.
Religious/scientist of the past described the world being flat, it wasn't just the religious movements, it was also the scientist of the time who introduced these theories.
The modern scientist of that era, tried to enlighten the masses, yet changing mainstream information is easier said than done. People will debate, experts or amateurs etc…all putting forward their point of views. Some may be atheist, spiritual or both, therefore lean to their preferences.
What is certain, information will continue to change, adapted, interpreted in many ways. I learn't along time ago, it doesn't help condemn any idea or theory because time is the only truth. In time we will all find out that everyone talked about the same thing, with different structure, interpretation and intentions.
The universe is so mysterious and anyone that tells me I know how it works, is full of s…t. yet they are still to be admired, regardless and not counted out as wrong, because no one is 100% right, no one, even people who have written 100 books on various subjects.
Just like people on forums write endless points of views, so have these experts or leaders etc….it is their professional opinion, not 100% proven.
When it comes to survival in our home, planet earth and the universe, it should be a primary responsibility to prepare in some way, for various outcomes.
As long as we humanity desires the easy excuse, life style etc…we will do anything to avoid what we really should be doing.
I believe evolution is essential and evident in all areas and in time we will understand that even better. The only way forward is to try and take all the information into account and prepare in way realistically possible.
Go tell someone who have lost their family to an earthquake or Tsunami etc…that they shouldn't worry about earth changes. That should be enough reason to understand, no matter how much science is available, we still cannot prevent, earth changes or a universal event. We are so vulnerable as a planet, yet also have enough information to try and prepare people for what may come.
What kind of hope will we have if certain people on this topic, decide what is right and wrong, when evidence of suffering is everywhere form natural disaster.
What happens if it becomes a global event, will you then post and say sorry, but so and so said it wouldn't happen, and this guy 100 years ago said the the core was like this and it wasn't possible or the galactic plane was meant to do this not that, sorry I ASSUMED it was right, because it sounded like the most intelligent answer at the time. Yet was just someone's opinion.
What everyone should ask themselves is - what is worth gambling on here?
I never want to be the person who stops another person from possibly surviving or finding peace of mind for what ever they believe. I never claim to be an expert or have the right answer, yet will keep an open mind and try to outline possible outcomes, being scientific, spiritual etc….why? because we are constantly learning, all the time, that is the only 100% fact.
My advice, make a list of scenarios, follow that up by what you could do to prepare for them. A useful forum in my eyes would be one that covers everything and finds solutions for all of them in the most realistic possible way.
Who is with me?
Religious/scientist of the past described the world being flat, it wasn't just the religious movements, it was also the scientist of the time who introduced these theories.
Actually, the world was described as spherical at least as early Pythagoras, curiously in general coincidence with a manner of investigation that might be called science, at least relative to how things were done earlier.
Just like people on forums write endless points of views, so have these experts or leaders etc….it is their professional opinion, not 100% proven.
Science deals in evidence and explanation, not proof. You're confused if you think that is even the purpose of scientific inquiry.
Go tell someone who have lost their family to an earthquake or Tsunami etc…that they shouldn't worry about earth changes.
You know what I think? I think you're ET_Man. I think you, ET_Man and the "admin" who posted that mountain of disinformation ET_Man linked to are one in the same, and this is how you pass your free time. The writing styles are eerily similar, and the ET_Man post above is signed similarly to the disinfo post (three lines concluding with "Best wishes!").
Shouldn't you be studying or something? Finals are coming up, right?
In any case, no one has shown an earthquake or tsunami to be the result of "earth changes." Earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanoes are actually quite normal, as we have discussed in numerous threads around here.
What kind of hope will we have if certain people on this topic, decide what is right and wrong, when evidence of suffering is everywhere form natural disaster.
If you have a problem with a claim on this website or board, maybe you should take some interest in addressing that subject instead of resorting to this vague hand-waving routine.
What happens if it becomes a global event, will you then post and say sorry, but so and so said it wouldn't happen, and this guy 100 years ago said the the core was like this and it wasn't possible or the galactic plane was meant to do this not that, sorry I ASSUMED it was right, because it sounded like the most intelligent answer at the time. Yet was just someone's opinion.
Again, you need to provide evidence and argumentation, not hand-waving.
What everyone should ask themselves is - what is worth gambling on here?
It's apparently worth a lot to 2012 doomsayers, many of whom are raking in the cash for their baseless, fear-mongering claims and lies.
I never want to be the person who stops another person from possibly surviving or finding peace of mind for what ever they believe. I never claim to be an expert or have the right answer, yet will keep an open mind and try to outline possible outcomes, being scientific, spiritual etc….why? because we are constantly learning, all the time, that is the only 100% fact.
This website addresses specific claims related to 2012 doom-saying, all of them listed in the menu to the left, and several others are bantered about on this forum. You've yet to offer anything of substance. You're invoking the doomsayer/conspiracy-theorist version of Pascal's Wager, the usefulness of which is directly proportional to the doomsayer's desire to make verbose proclamations in the absence of evidence.
My advice, make a list of scenarios, follow that up by what you could do to prepare for them. A useful forum in my eyes would be one that covers everything and finds solutions for all of them in the most realistic possible way.
The most useful solution for the "scenarios" addressed by this website is to understand that they have no basis in fact. If you're concerned about general emergency preparedness, such information and supplies aren't hard to come by.
http://www.ready.gov
http://beprepared.com
http://www.bt.cdc.gov
http://www.areyouprepared.com
http://72hours.org
Who is with me?
See above.
Sorry 'TheGreatJuru', I am no one you mentioned, I got this link from another forum yesterday, you sound a little paranoid and defensive to be honest.
I have dealt with a few people like you, and I will try to say this without any disrespect if possible. Some people who are obviously intelligent, know exactly what a post like mine indicate.
Yet you chose to get defensive to anyone who doesn't agree with you. If people read what I have written, they will understand, I claim no one is wrong, that is the moral of the post.
You unfortunately for some reason desire someone to be wrong, so your contradiction to me is, maybe you should be studying or something else.
It always amazes me how people like you, automatically in vision who the writer is and use intimidation tactics to show others your superiority, that tells me a lot about your psychology, and explains your outlook. Shame really.
I don't want to provide evidence because I don't believe most of the evidence people are fed. I don't believe if I find a link to prove what I'm saying indicates I am right. Like I said the information is passed on and people then decide, this sounds right to me and we build a majority rules situation.
Information is vital, yet how we use it will determine the outcome, I am not a 2012 fanatic or a conspiracy theorist, just someone who wants to help people, that could be the difference between a lot of people.
Yet we all are in the same boat, the problem is, everyone wants to be the captain.
I am passed the point of defending my intention and views, just like you I am entitled to my opinion, that is the beauty of freewill. You say show you the evidence, I say, you are my evidence.
Good day, take care
If people read what I have written, they will understand, I claim no one is wrong, that is the moral of the post.
That position is divorced from reality. If two propositions are mutually exclusive, the following possibilities arise:
1) Both propositions are false.
2) One proposition is true, and the other is false.
In either case, someone is wrong.
You say show you the evidence, I say, you are my evidence.
You have no evidence, which is why you resort to hand-waving and character attacks. You hope to bury the fact that you have no answer to my replies under the drivel I'm responding to now. Just look at those red herrings fly. Amazing.
As expected, your response to being refuted is to pretend it didn't happen.
The reason why no one is wrong, is simple, 2012 hasn't arrived for one, catastrophic events can happen at any time not only 2012, The universe is still uncharted territory, a lot more to learn, science is always changing, adjusting or updating, spirituality is constantly been interpreted in many ways these days, therefore can be linked to scientific explanations (David Wilcock).
Information changes all the time, we read, watch and hear it from all over the planet and some may even say the universe.
What you are so certain is evidence and explanation, not proof, isn't 100% guaranteed, lets face it, nothing is 100%, think about that before saying "oh yes it is, because this book says so or this scientist said it is". They get paid like any one else, need commissions to survive etc….sometimes they play there investors, just like religious movements do, why to generate money!!!
If I write a 100 books on the universe, does that make an expert? No it says I am very dedicated and most likely, very well researched. Yet any one that research's (like all of us do to some degree) will know they are using information passed down, not everyone repeats experiments, or double checks calculations etc…they assume if it is printed, it is correct. The fact is they where published and sold, like any product to a very popular market, for profit, not only for our benefit.
Therefore, even if a author isn't 100% certain their claims are correct, they know they are allowed to print it. It then becomes freedom of speech and the education sector or religious movements will decide is it doctrine they will feel comfortable using for students etc…everything is voted on, hence my majority rules scenario.
Something that has been approved by governments or varies sectors to be the truth or best options, doesn't always end up being the truth or best option. Maybe I am wrong, can they get it wrong? please don't answer that.
As far as hand wavering and character attacks, you are the king of that, it is obvious it is your only defence when you realise others have a point that you can't actually disagree with,so just treat it as an attack or hand waver.
it is all right to admit you are wrong, I have many times and agree with many of the statements you have made, yet others have valid points as well. I am saying look at information for what it is, information, not fact. Just as you cannot prove spiritual energy exist they cannot prove dark matter doesn't exist, it is an observation, a theory, not fact.
Wouldn't it be great if one day we find out a lot of what scientist label as various, matters, waves, energy is actually related to various interpretation for various movements. It seems humanity is curious, aware and inspired, just at different levels with different subjects. I believe all the information will eventually lead to one fact, it is all relevant, and one day when we put aside, various emotions or grow up (even me) then we could make total sense of it all, not just the area we are passionate about.
It seems you don't want constructive dialogue, just debates, that isn't a forum in my eyes. Stop labelling me and others because they express themselves by who they want to be, not who you want them to be. I have never said you are wrong, I just said no one is 100%. Calm down, take a deep breathe and try to read my words, understand them, not judge them.
2012 hasn't arrived for one
2012 doesn't have to arrive for certain claims pertaining thereto to be false. If two propositions are mutually exclusive, the following possibilities arise:
1) Both propositions are false.
2) One proposition is true, and the other is false.
In either case, someone is wrong.
In the case of claims that cannot be verified or falsified, it is accurate to note that such claims are made without evidence. One can quite literally claim anything. There's no compelling reason to accept such a claim, except for perhaps wishful thinking or hysteria (which, sadly, there is much of regarding 2012, and that's one reason why Astrogeek and others started this site).
What you are so certain is evidence and explanation, not proof, isn't 100% guaranteed
Did I or anyone else on the board ever say that anything is "100% guaranteed?" I'm pretty sure folks here have said the opposite on a number of occasions. Do you know what a straw-man is?
As far as hand wavering and character attacks, you are the king of that, it is obvious it is your only defence when you realise others have a point that you can't actually disagree with,so just treat it as an attack or hand waver.
Projection, silly ET_Man/Dtruth, and we both know it.
it is an observation, a theory, not fact.
Scientific theories are explanations of facts, founded upon them. They do not become facts, ever, nor are they diametrically opposed to facts. They comprise a different class of inquiry.
http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html
An observation, by definition, is a fact. However, due to the subjective nature of perception, science demands reproducibility and falsifiability.
It seems you don't want constructive dialogue, just debates, that isn't a forum in my eyes.
This is the "Debate" section, which in general requires evidence and solid argumentation in support of claims. You seem to have problems on both counts, resorting instead to long rants about my character and whatever else allows you to ignore what I've actually said to you.
Again, as expected, your response to being refuted is to verbosely pretend it didn't happen.
The only person ignoring what has been said are you guys and please I am not ETman, I am not an alien in a human body and would never suggest that, sounds ridiculous to be honest, give that guy 50 cents so he can phone home, LOL. Believe it or not I am me, DTruth, someone who has just been directed here by a site Ivan Stein was part of.
I know what you are trying to say regarding science etc…and can see why you debate as you do, fair enough. Yet I disagree that 2012 doesn't have to arrive for it to be wrong. When it does arrive and nothing happens, then you are right, until then, no one is wrong or right.
As hard as how some issues are to believe, I cannot prove anything to you, because you are not me. What we all learn,experience and discover in life helps us analyse and accept the information we are looking for.
I am not fanatical about any tragic event that may come, yet try to keep an open mind on the possibility it can happen. Someone doesn't get an alarm system because they know when or if they will be robbed, it's there to hopefully be ready if it ever happens, preparing isn't wrong.
To be honest, groups like 'Vivos' who don't believe in 2012, yet have a society to prepare for any event, being man made or natural. I don't see this as being wrong.
If Noah has any meaning, leaving god out of it, the message is simple, prepare because one day there could be flood. The people who mocked, laughed etc…couldn't be bothered helping, working, they would rather enjoy life all the time, rather than in moderation. That is the message I get from the Noah story, being true or not. I know you believe it didn't happen, I am not claiming that, just the message it illustrates. We should prepare as our primary responsibility for what ever may come, that might even lead to some sort of peace who knows, another topic their.
I have many theories about observations I have personally made and am making a film to actual try to reduce crime, hopefully you will know who the D Truth is when it is complete.
I am afraid your statement regarding, has you or any one claimed anything to be 100%, well yes. By saying certain events haven't happened means you are 100% certain, like Noah for example, not that it did, yet there is a possibility.
If I told you Australia was covered with stones, because I have been there, would you believe me or someone who says it can't be, yet hasn't been there.
The point I am trying to make is, no one has been to the galactic plane, the core of the earth, to the sun, to other planets, to the past of to the future, to another galaxy etc…. therefore no one knows 100% what is truth or just fiction when it comes to the information at hand.
I for one would like to believe the person who has at least been to Australia, rather than the person rights about it. I can get of track here, but i think you can understand what I mean.
I personally believe that all the ancient scriptures, tablets, monuments etc…from all continents, from 'I Ching', Sumerian, Mayan, Pharaoh, to the bible, Karan, Jewish belief, Indians, Budist etc….have all warned and talked about future events or various stages, various observation, interpretations and explanations about who, why and how we are as well as we could be going. I believe all these interventions, messages and information is no accident and some how the universe works in a complicated and fragile framework designed to fulfil an evolution of the creation we are witnessing.
Why is very complicated, yet I have faith one day science and spirituality will talk from the same page, that will save us in the end, not one or the other. The longer we fight a battle or who is right or wrong, the longer we will miss the point all together.
I won't write anything else from this point, was just dropping by to try and understand what the fuss is all about and can see, it's just to opposite end s of the scale trying to out weigh each other, when they should be trying to find the balance as intended.
Good luck all, take care, try to play nice.
And for all the aliens out there, you owe me, for the atheist, you need to re open the mind that got you there in the first place and all you spiritual ambassadors, forcing someone to drink when they are not thirsty will only choke them.
Zeroing in on part of your post to make a point…
If I told you Australia was covered with stones, because I have been there, would you believe me or someone who says it can't be, yet hasn't been there.
The point I am trying to make is, no one has been to the galactic plane, the core of the earth, to the sun, to other planets, to the past of to the future, to another galaxy etc…. therefore no one knows 100% what is truth or just fiction when it comes to the information at hand.
The problem that I have with this viewpoint is that you are drawing a false analogy.
You assert that we can know that Australia is covered with stones by interviewing someone who has been there, but we cannot know the conditions elsewhere in the galaxy because nobody has been there.
This analogy is false. We can determine if Australia is covered with stones without having actually visited the continent, using various means. Satellite images, for example, could show us various things such as the percentage of bare earth to vegetation, the reflectivity of the surface, the heat retention overnight, etc, etc. We can then build informed theories as to whether or not Australia is covered with stones, all without ever having set foot on it. So, a visit to Australia is not necessary in order to make the determination.
Neither is a visit to the galactic plane or galactic center, or to any of the other locations you list necessary in order to make a determination about the validity of the ideas forwarded by the 2012 doomsayers. We can review the available evidence, and weigh the doomsayer's arguments against that evidence, without having ever visited those locations.
For example, one of the claims made regarding the galactic plane is that we will cross it in 2012. This claim is made without evidence, and in fact in contradiction to the available evidence, which indicates that we are somewhere between 5 and 20 light years above (to the galactic north of) the galactic plane, and are moving away from it. We can therefore dismiss the claim that we will cross the galactic plane in 2012.
Another issue that I have with your analogy is that it shifts the burden of proof. It is not up to us to prove that Australia is not covered with stones, it is up to the arguer making the positive claim (i.e. "Australia is covered with stones") to present their evidence and make their case. This gives the community a basis upon which to make the judgement of the validity of their claim.
Here's my counterpoint: Not all ideas have equal merit.
In previous posts in this thread you seem to imply that science moves forward through a 'majority rules' scenario. This is not the case.
The closest political scenario for science is not a democracy, but rather a meritocracy.
For example, let us examine two claims made about the sun. Person A says that the sun will explode in 2012 (this is actually a claim I have seen made). Person B says that it will not. Person B is a person who has studied the sun, who has gone to college, and then to graduate school, and who has published a PhD thesis on solar dynamics, who has written papers that have passed the gauntlet of peer review. A person such as this, when they speak about the sun, has a great deal of training and experience to draw upon. Person A (the claimant) is an 'independent researcher' with no formal education in astronomy or solar dynamics, who has never published a paper that has appeared in a peer reviewed journal, but claims that their ideas have equal footing as Person B. Person "A" says the sun will explode, but Person "B" (the solar expert) says "no, the sun will not explode in 2012", who should I believe?
Should I give these two viewpoints equal weight?
Why?
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
The only person ignoring what has been said are you guys
That's certainly a curious spin to place on your sheer refusal to respond to anything I said in my first post, which refuted you line-by-line. I'd repeat myself, but that post is still there, as is your meandering red herring of a reply.
and please I am not ETman
I don't believe you, but the only evidence I have access to is circumstantial, and it's ultimately irrelevant anyway. Whether you are ET_Man or not, however, I am convinced that ET_Man and the author of the woo site he claimed to have "found" are one in the same, and I maintain that your writing style and tendency to verbosely change the subject bear an uncanny resemblance to the former.
Yet I disagree that 2012 doesn't have to arrive for it to be wrong. When it does arrive and nothing happens, then you are right, until then, no one is wrong or right.
I don't think you understand. Neither I nor anyone on this board purports to know what will or will not occur in 2011, 2012, 2013 or any other year (short of demonstrably untrue proposition like the solar system crossing the galactic plane, which I'll get to in a moment). Many here routinely speculate that 2012 will see its share upheaval and disasters, similar to means that have been established for as long as pertinent records have been kept. This site, though, exists to address specific claims, which are listed in the menu to the left. These claims, for the most part, are of a positive nature and subject to scientific and logical analysis. They are handled as such. I explained this in my first response to you, and I've now explained it twice.
As hard as how some issues are to believe, I cannot prove anything to you, because you are not me.
I've never asked for proof of anything, and I always tell those who ask for proof from me that science doesn't deal in proof. I told you as much, in fact. So why do you keep talking about proof as if I haven't made this perfectly clear?
…yet try to keep an open mind on the possibility it can happen.
This goes right back to the misunderstanding I explained above.
…prepare because one day there could be flood.
I don't object to emergency preparedness. In fact, I provided numerous links in my first response to emergency preparedness sites. I believe I recall Astrogeek stating somewhere that he keeps a stock of emergency supplies in his house. Common sense, really. Constant hysterical expectation of doomsday, however, is just silly.
By saying certain events haven't happened means you are 100% certain like Noah for example, not that it did, yet there is a possibility.
My exact words on the flood, with links:
Never mind that the flood tale is impossible, so it's silly to even go looking for such an ark in the first place.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.skepdic.com/noahsark.html
If you want to say it's possible like "the moon is possibly made of cheese," well, you're welcome to do that.
If I told you Australia was covered with stones, because I have been there, would you believe me or someone who says it can't be, yet hasn't been there.
Why would I believe either of you? Assuming I had no preexisting notions of Australia, both statements are devoid of sufficient qualification and supporting evidence.
The point I am trying to make is, no one has been to the galactic plane
The galactic plane (representing the spread of the disc) is part of a coordinate system used to keep track of celestial objects, and we aren't anywhere near it. Therefore, claims that the solar system is about to pass through the galactic plane and spark some calamity in 2012 are false.
http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-plane
http://www.2012hoax.org/black-hole
I guess you can claim that our understanding of physics is completely wrong, and that the solar system might possibly make an abrupt change in direction and somehow travel a distance of dozens of light years in 2 years without tearing itself apart. Good luck with the math.
the core of the earth
Unfortunately, no. We're limited to indirect observation and math. Too hot, and digging that far is problematic.
to the sun
No, but we can monitor the sun in some detail.
to other planets
No, but we've sent probes and satellites, in addition to using the ol' mathematics and spectroscopy that tend to work pretty well most of the time. Have you seen the Huygens images of Titan? Remarkable.
to the past of to the future, to another galaxy etc…. therefore no one knows 100% what is truth or just fiction when it comes to the information at hand.
Sigh. You still don't get it. You're obsessed with this "proof" and "100%" mess that you're never going to find, short of performative truths in philosophy like "I exist," and "I am alive." Science deals with evidence and explanation.
I for one would like to believe the person who has at least been to Australia
Well, I for one try not to let what I would like to believe get in the way of looking at the evidence as objectively as possible, and being able to discern between evidence and male bovine feces.
I personally believe…
You are certainly welcome to believe all of that. My affinity for evidence and logic precludes such belief.
yet I have faith one day science and spirituality will talk from the same page,
As science is necessarily materialistic, I don't share your faith.
that will save us in the end, not one or the other.
Save us from what?
The longer we fight a battle or who is right or wrong, the longer we will miss the point all together.
Mutually exclusive propositions are either both false, or one is false and one true. In either case, at least one claimant is wrong. You can't escape this, no matter how hard you try.
when they should be trying to find the balance as intended.
Striking a "balance" with bald assertions, falsehoods and misunderstandings isn't my idea of anything good.
for the atheist, you need to re open the mind that got you there in the first place
You imply that atheists are necessarily closed-minded, which is almost as amusing as it is wrong.
2012 is just fantasy.
on this site see you all the predictions that never comes.
/forum/t-237541/watch-these-videos-and-debunk#post-