Apocolypse Island
Angel (guest) 13 May 2010 04:32
Who is Jim Turner that found the island with the artifact that proves the Maya thought 2012 was the end? It was on HInt tonight. Also mentioned Nostradamous.
Apocolypse Island
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Summary:
Is this real?
Angel (guest) 13 May 2010 04:32
Also, who is Jeff Salz, Ph.D that was with him? This scares me. Really bad.
There is no island or artifact confirming the Mayan 2012 prophecy, because the Maya made no such prophecy. It doesn't exist. Any "evidence" presented about a so-called "prophecy" is presented ad hoc, in support of a false premise. The same goes for History Channel shill Jim Turner and his magic island.
Nostradamus was a fraudster. http://www.2012hoax.org/nostradamus
I've never heard of Jeff Salz. If he was claiming to have found evidence in support of a Mayan doomsday prophecy, he is wrong, because no such prophecy exists. It doesn't matter which letters follow his name or what "evidence" he attached to the prophecy. It would be like me finding a particular piece of jewelry and claiming it as evidence that Sauron was breeding an army of orcs to conquer the world.
I strongly recommend that you stop taking the History Channel seriously. It has more or less become a tabloid, and "documentaries" like those about 2012 are devoid of scientific and historical rigor. Please stop believing them, for your own peace of mind if nothing else.
Cheers.
The Mystery of 2012
An Update from Robinson Crusoe Island
by Jeff Salz, Ph.D.
Why all the hubbub about December 21, 2012?
Is it the end of the old world … or just the opening of a new movie?
After an expedition around the world, one cultural anthropologist shares his thoughts.
The expedition is over. The crew has departed, leaving me alone on this sparsely inhabited island in the South Pacific. In 1704, privateer Alexander Selkirk, the inspiration for the tale of Robinson Crusoe, spent four and a half years stranded here. I have but four and a half days. Marooned indefinitely, cut off from the rest of the world, the swashbuckling, amoral Selkirk discovered a deep spiritual peace and elevated perspective that he recalled for the rest of his life.
An account in The Englishman, a newspaper at the time of his rescue, recounts:
“This plain man’s story is a memorable example that he is happiest who
confines his wants to natural necessities, and he that goes further in his
desires increases his wants in proportion to his acquisitions; or to use his
own expression, ‘I am worth eight hundred pounds (a LOT of money at that time),
but shall never be so happy as when I was not worth a farthing.’ ”
Interestingly, 2009 is exactly three centuries from the year of Selkirk’s escape. Inspired by his story, moved by his insights, I seek a homeopathic dose of the same medicine. Or at least enough distance-inspired perspective to provide some clarity on my life and the findings of our recent expedition.
Just a month ago I got the phone call. One of those you dream of. An archeologist had discovered a ‘monument’ on an undisclosed island off the coast of South America that was potentially linked not only to the Mayan culture, but to the “phenomenon of 2012”. The History Channel was mounting an expedition and needed an anthropologist/adventurer to join him on his return escapade to the site.
There were rough seas to traverse in a small boat. Steep and treacherous volcanic rock to climb. Pay was nominal, hardships plentiful, conditions hazardous. Was I interested?
You bet.
Two weeks later I was on a tuna-fishing boat, the Tio Tomas, steaming away from Valparaiso Chile embarking on the three-day trip to Robinson Crusoe Island.
Filming on Robinson Crusoe Island
Jim Turner is a force of nature.
His relentless enthusiasm and boundless imagination have made him a near-legend here on the island. Jim first stumbled across the ‘monument’ in 1996. An archeologist with a specialization in pre-Columbian Mayan architecture, he was bumming around the end of the world with a backpack when an unusual formation at the uninhabited tip of the island caught his eye. He recognized the shape of the 150 foot tall tower as the distinct form of two principal characters of the Palenque-era Maya: the snail and the jaguar. Returning home and beginning his research, Jim Turner made a startling discovery: the final transit of Venus and the last solar eclipse of the World Age of 5,125 years – according to the Long Count calendar – were to be uniquely visible from the slopes of the ‘monument’.
Pieces of the puzzle were beginning to pile up.
Jim was well versed in the history of the Mayan kings of Palenque who had a propensity to memorialize their reigns with temples and palaces. However no such structure had ever been discovered to commemorate one of the greatest kings of all: the legendary Chan Bahlum. Could it be that Chan Bahlum and his ancient Mayan mariners somehow found their way thousand of miles from Central America to these deserted shores to carve a memorial befitting a royal figure of such rank? One that would reign for thousands of years and have a front row seat for one of the greatest spectacles of all time: the final total solar eclipse of 2012?
It seems that no matter how deeply one investigates the Maya, the outcome is few answers… and a lot more questions.
Why did an advanced civilization appear more than 1,500 years ago with the most sophisticated calendar till the advent of the computers of the 20th century, construct a huge empire replete with observatories to study galactic cycles… and then suddenly disappear? So suddenly that 2009 findings suggest a sudden departure
with household implements abandoned – almost Pompeii-style – helter-skelter in ancient kitchens ? Why does their 5,000 year calendar (so accurate that experts like Michael D. Coe tell us it has “not slipped one day in over 25 centuries”) end specifically on a precise date: December 21, 2012? Is it a coincidence that they choose as their final day the exact date that our solar system, our sun and our planet align with the center of the Milky Way galaxy – an event that will not happen again for another 26,000 years? And that day happens to fall on the exact date of the winter solstice?
Mysterious ‘Mayan’ Monument … and Stars
And is it a co-incidence that Jim Turner’s ‘monument’ stares out at an unobstructed view of the horizon in one of the few locations on the planet with an actual vista of the final solar eclipse of a two hundred and sixty century cycle?
(A disclaimer: You will find no spoilers here. To divulge all our findings would be a disservice to our sponsors at the History Channel. The show is tentatively scheduled for broadcast on January 3, 2010. I hope you will make a note to tune in. Suffice to say, if we have done our job right the viewer will be left enthralled by the adventure, amazed by the research… and left to wonder. For to be full of wonder is indeed ‘wonder-full’.)
Personally, I am impressed that so many of the oldest indigenous traditions agree, predicting times of massive transformation immediately ahead. Not only Mayan and Hopi, Aztec, Inca, many scholars from many of the world’s leading religions – including Christian, Hindu and Jewish – agree. For non-believers, it is impossible to deny the forecasts of scientists of every stripe who warn that peak oil, global climate change, changing demographics, the rise of consumerism, species extinction and our current world-wide economic downturn are in conjunction to overcome our societal slumber with a wake-up call in the form of a ‘perfect storm’ of planetary proportions.
Still, in my opinion the news is good. Not easy… but good. At the edge of a precipice, the only step ahead is one in some entirely different direction. I believe this journey to the edge may scare us just enough to change course.
While there is ample agreement among major traditions that an old world may be coming to an end, there is every reason to believe that a new and better world is in the works. Elders the world around point to a rebirth that may lead to an even brighter future. Forty years ago Oswald White Bear Fredricks – co-author of The Book of the Hopi – took me aside and explained a Hopi prophesy found on the rocks of Old Oraibi. We were soon to depart the Fourth World for the Fifth, he explained. This would be a rebirth for humankind, an emergence from a time of greed, scarcity and spiritual impoverishment. During my dozens of visits to Nepal and India I have repeatedly experienced the Hindu belief in the imminent end of the age of darkness called the Kali Yuga. The world of injustice and suffering we inhabit currently is little more than Brahma’s bad dream from which he is about to awake – and us with him – into the Golden Age, the paradisiacal Satya Yuga.
I would remind Hollywood filmmakers and those of similar cataclysmic persuasion that the end of a calendar does not mean the end of the world. Mayan time – like that of Hindu and most indigenous traditions – is cyclic, it flows from one ‘world cycle’ into another. We use a similar language when we speak of the ‘end of the year ‘ never thinking to debate whether or not there will be a new one coming once midnight has passed and the last page is ripped from the preceding year’s datebook.
The danger being a 2012 devotee is that – whether you are apocalyptic or optimistic – it is possible to just sit in our chairs, lulled into a sense of misguided fatalism, waiting to see what happens next. In our current world situation, that would be a mistake. Instead, we must leap to our feet and actively embrace the Buddhist notion of kharma: the understanding that our destiny is no more or less than as the choices we make. No matter what tradition you embrace – be it spirit or science – 2012 presents an essential opportunity, a rallying point for concentrated efforts to create new paradigms in politics. In business. In life.
Exactly three hundred years after Selkirk was plucked off this island and returned to his family, I ponder my experience and inevitable return. Like most of us, I recall my initial experience of photos taken by astronauts on the moon that offered us our first clear images of the earth from space. The ultimate group portrait of life shared on a giant blue ball floating in space, somewhere between Mars and Venus. It was a transcendent moment that would affect our awareness forever.
On December 21, 2012 the sun will move into direct alignment with the center of the Milky Way. Perhaps our planet will – as some mystics claim – be bathed in cosmic rays that will elevate our consciousness and a new golden age will begin. I do not know. But of one thing I am absolutely certain. On that date we will all have the opportunity to upgrade our perspective from the planetary to the galactic.
As Alexander Selkirk understood upon arriving back from his adventure around the world: the greatest gift of all is the chance to see our lives and homes with fresh eyes, as if for the first time… and then, out of appreciation and gratitude, make better choices for our life ahead.
On December 21, 2012 we will all have that opportunity.
One of today’s authentic adventurers and explorers, Dr. Jeff Salz has spent a lifetime traversing most of the remaining blank spots on the globe. A professional wilderness guide and expedition-leader with a Ph.D. in cultural anthropology, he continues to leads frequent mountaineering treks to remote areas and unclimbed summits in the Himalayas.
When not in the wilderness, through articles, books, keynote speaking and consulting, Jeff is the ‘guru of adventure’ for today’s most cutting edge organizations. His client list includes top leadership at organizations such as eBay, Microsoft, Wal-Mart and the Walt Disney Company.
That is from Jeff Salz blog about going with Jim Turner and finding the monument. If this man has so many respected clients, he must not be too crazy
Quite a while back, a man was once respected, liked, and even loved. He was even deemed to be a good neighbor. His name was Edward Gein.
Anyone who mentions Nostradamus and 2012 in the same sentence (oops) is either an idiot, or just looking to sell some books with "facts" that are more like "fairytales".
The moral here is that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, or a man by his medals.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
Angel, it's going to take some effort to debunk all the horribly wrong things in that story. I'll give you an abridged version here.
- There is no "Mayan prophecy" about 2012. The author continually writes as though this "prophecy" is some given fact, but it's pure, 100% fantasy. Such people are desperately trying to find any scrap of "evidence" whatsoever that can be shoehorned into their pre-drawn conclusions. That isn't science. That isn't how rational people deduce probabilities or discern truth. Even if the Mayans did create some prophecy about 2012 (which they most certainly did not), what reason would you have for believing in the Mayan religion? They couldn't even make an accurate calendar. Why would you care what they claimed about the distant future?
- Have you seen this "monument?" You seem to have watched the show, so I assume you did. Does it look like a snail and jaguar to you? Not to me. It looks like a chunk of rock that sat out in the weather for a really long time.
- I have no idea what the author thinks is so special about the transit of Venus and the eclipse, claiming they were "uniquely visible from the slopes of the ‘monument’." First of all, there is no discernible "monument." Secondly, a chunk of rock being in viewing position of a planetary transit and an eclipse isn't evidence of anything. That surely happens somewhere in the world every time Venus makes a transit and every time there is an eclipse. It is not significant. Even if there is a monument and it was built for some purpose connected to those celestial events, that is still not significant, because there is no "prophecy."
- As for Jeff Salz, I don't care how many clients he has, how long he went to school or what type of degree he has. There is no "Mayan prophecy." Therefore, stories built around such a "prophecy" are false at the most fundamental level. Mr. Salz's credentials cannot save him from this. Isaac Newton, perhaps one of the smartest humans to ever grace the earth, believed in alchemy, after all.
There are falsehoods scattered throughout that article. I will take the time to refute it in detail if you so desire. But before I do that, can you tell me if you take any of that seriously? If so, why?
I guess Take him seriously because he does have a Ph.D. And I guess because I am so worried about this 2012 stuff. To me it did just look like a rock, but with him being an antropologist, I figured he knew his stuff. I just want to try to cover EVERY angle of this 2012 stuff to try to help me to understand.
I guess Take him seriously because he does have a Ph.D.
That might be, but his level of education does not change the fact that there is no such thing is as a Mayan "prophecy" about 2012. Again, Isaac Newton was the inventor of calculus, the formulator of the laws of motion, and he was also an alchemist. Otherwise smart people can believe in stupid things, especially when they can't get past their own preconceptions and presuppositions.
And I guess because I am so worried about this 2012 stuff.
I know you're worried, but I think a lot of that is because you're listening to people that you probably shouldn't pay any attention to, because they're all making these wild claims without any evidence whatsoever. Many of them are confused themselves, while others are just trying to make a buck on the sensationalism (e.g. the History Channel).
To me it did just look like a rock, but with him being an antropologist, I figured he knew his stuff.
Being an anthropologist doesn't make him immune to projecting his preconceptions onto the "evidence." And at the risk of belaboring the point, it doesn't even matter in this case, because his premise (a Mayan "prophecy" about 2012) is utterly false.
I just want to try to cover EVERY angle of this 2012 stuff to try to help me to understand.
I certainly don't fault you for that, but there comes a point where you have to start weighing the evidence. If you do so honestly, I'm confident you will realize that there is no evidence supporting 2012 doomsday claims.
This is quite a lengthy piece. I'll just debunk the astronomical side of it.
Jim Turner made a startling discovery: the final transit of Venus and the last solar eclipse of the World Age of 5,125 years – according to the Long Count calendar – were to be uniquely visible from the slopes of the ‘monument’.
One that would reign for thousands of years and have a front row seat for one of the greatest spectacles of all time: the final total solar eclipse of 2012?
The 2012 eclipse will not be total as seen from this island. It will be partial, in common with most of the South Pacific. This island is one of the few places in the Pacific where the 2012 Transit of Venus will not be visible. They never seem to think that anyone is going to check up on this sort of thing.
..their 5,000 year calendar (so accurate that experts like Michael D. Coe tell us it has “not slipped one day in over 25 centuries”)
The Long Count is not related to any natural cycle. Day 2 follows Day 1. The question of accuracy is irrelevant.
Is it a coincidence that they choose as their final day the exact date that our solar system, our sun and our planet align with the center of the Milky Way galaxy
On December 21, 2012 the sun will move into direct alignment with the center of the Milky Way.
There is no particular alignment on that date. The Sun never aligns with the centre of the Milky Way galaxy.
From http://www.bigspeak.com/jeff-salz.html
"Dr. Salz has attained a unique perspective of the secret keys linking ancient wisdom to the success of today's rapidly changing world."
This immediately flags up my woo-woo detectors.
So, someone happens across a rock on a remote island and thinks it looks "Mayan". The whole thing is then dragged out into a two-hour "fakeumentary" which never actually establishes any link at all with the Mayans and throws in a lot of unfounded conjecture and plain lies along the way. This is the level to which the History Channel has sunk
So, in short, Jeff Salz and Jim Turner are quakes and they didn't find anything and the program never actually said "Yes, they predicted 2012."? I didn't finish watching it because it worried me so bad. And all of you guys on here are POSITIVE 2012 is not the end of the world? No planet, no pole shift, no nothing out of the ordinary?
i wonder if on that Island there are zombies runnin arround huh. Man i dont know where some ppl live. I must say i am tired of this tales we are not a in a cartoon made for adults on the cartoon network gezzz……
So, in short, Jeff Salz and Jim Turner are quakes and they didn't find anything
They didn't find anything that relates to a 2012 doomsday prophecy, because no such prophecy exists (and there would be no reason to consider one true even if it did), nor did these men find anything that is demonstrably Mayan in origin, as I understand their claims.
And all of you guys on here are POSITIVE 2012 is not the end of the world?
I'm positive that all of the claims about a 2012 doomsday are false. Unlike the people making such claims, I don't purport to predict the future, but there is no evidence of anything to worry about. At this point, there's no more chance of a doomsday in 2012 than in 2011, 2013 or 2447.
No planet, no pole shift, no nothing out of the ordinary?
All of those and similar claims are debunked on this site. As has been said many times here by Astrogeek and others, 2012 will likely have its share of natural disasters and turmoil, just like any other year, but the claims of pole shifts, so-called "alignments" and other such happenings are complete and utter hogwash.
What about '2012 Countdown to Armageddon" on NatGeo where a Princeton geologist goes around the globe to prove they said it was the end?
Hi Angel. Here is what I found about that program:
"Countdown to Armageddon is a 2004 History Channel documentary film that reviews the history of apocalyptic literature (Armageddon). The documentary is written and directed by David de Vries, produced by Craig Haffner and Glenn Kirschbaum, narrated by Edward Herrmann, and features archaeologist/historian Eric H. Cline, Orthodox Christian scholar John McGuckin, televangelist John Hagee, author Tim LaHaye, and author Gershom Gorenberg.
"The End is Near" is a cry that has echoed throughout human history. Every religion has stories of the end of the world, and believers in every era have prophesized that the time was at hand. So far, these predictions have come to naught, but a rash of unusual events and the rise of fundamental faiths have led to a new golden era of doomsayers."
There is no geologist involved. There is an archaeologist/historian, but he didn't go to Princeton and doesn't work for them. However, his credentials qualify him for studying the history of apocalyptic literature, but not to predict future astronomical or geological events. The others aren't scientists, but are religious fundamentalists and authors.
This article doesn't indicate that they were predicting doomsday, but that they were studying past "doomsdays." I haven't seen the show, so I don't know what the upshot of it was, but I know that Hagee is the fundie crackpot who said that God caused Hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans to prevent a scheduled gay parade. He is a nutjob. I wouldn't give any credence to anything he says.
Alene,
The one I am talking about the title is "2012: Countdown to armmegedon" but i cant remember what channel. It says something about a Princeton geologist. Could it be the same one? Those shows really scare me.
I searched for "Countdown to Armageddon" and thought that would be the one. They also listed that title as an episode of Decoding the past, but didn't give a summary or say who was on that one. Nat Geo is part of Rupert Murdoch's Fox empire, as is the History Channel, so they do use some of the same doomsday programs. Both of these were History Channel shows. I'll see what else I can find.
I looked it up on the NatGeoTV site and watched a video of what is evidently part of that program. They had Adam Maloof, who is a Geology professor at Princeton, and Lonnie Thompson from Ohio State. They were studying plants under the ice in the Andes and said these indicated sudden climate change 5200 years ago. They said that sudden climate change there would likely indicate that it had also occurred in the Yucatan, where the Maya lived. They speculated that it might have caused a cultural change (or new age) at that time. The last cycle change of the Mayan calendar was about that time. Note that it wasn't the end of the world.
This doesn't signify anything for 2012. If we choose to believe in Mayan mythology, we would expect a new age to begin in 2012. Big deal.
Even if we are experiencing climate change, nothing drastic would result from it by then. If we keep contributing to global warming and it continues unabated, we would start to experience a gradual rise in sea level which would cause flooding in low lying coastal areas over a long period of time. Nothing would change drastically in the near future.
That whole site looked like a doomsday site. However, I will try to remember to watch this show on Sunday, just so I know what else was said because they didn't prove anything except that some plants froze about 5200 years ago in the Andes mountains, slightly farther from the Yucatan than I am in the US midwest.
2012: Countdown to Armageddon studies mostly in theoretical events that are already being plastered everywhere by doomsayers.
However, to sometimes counter their nonsense, they toss in plausible events such as an advanced strain of the flu, or a mutated strain of another deadly virus, or a new virus all together. The show (like many others) talk about things that are pure speculation and theory, I believe there was once an episode where aliens descended from the sky and started killing us all.
In all, it's nothing that I'm impressed by.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
So basically, they are doing shows saying "oh the Maya predicted the end." But they give no evidence to support it. NONE. Right?
That's right, Angel.
The show only contains theories that, really, have no basis in reality, most of the theories that they present are either impossible or unlikely.
My mother always told me to never believe anything that I hear on TV, the shows like 2012: Countdown to Armageddon are perfect examples as to why you should never believe anything that you hear on TV.
Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.
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