I'm Terrified

Summary:

Please help

I'm Terrified

Ansley (guest) 17 Sep 2010 00:26

HI everyone!! I'm Ansley and I'm 19. I recently heard about al of the 2012 stuff from the History Channel. Well, from day one it has hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm scared. I've taken a few days to read over the stuff on this site, so I'm posting now. I want to believe everything you have said, but I can't make my brain believe it. I'm at a breaking point. I know that even NASA says to not believe it. A lot of people on Yahoo! answers also say that. My anxiety is so bad. I don't know what to believe. I've tried talking to family and friends and they all just say it's BS. I've even went to a therapist. None of it helped. I came here, because I had nowhere else to tirn. How do I know that you guys really knoww what you're talking about, please don't be affended. I'm terrified that I only have 1.5 years left and then BOOM. We're done. I mean, I want a family and to graduate college. PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME. I can't pinpoint one specific thing that scares me the most. It';s all of the 2012 doomsday stuff. I don't understand a lot of it. Such as the Maya and Alignments and such….I just need someone to talk to. Once I get stuck on something, it doesn't go away….Please help me!!! I'm going crazy over this….literally.

Ansley (guest) 17 Sep 2010 00:47

I found this post that says many cultures including the Cherokees are predicting something in 2012. The article also says John Major Jenkins admits it isn't the end.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_13738583

Moo (guest) 17 Sep 2010 00:59

"The Mayans aren't the only culture with predictions of doom connected to 2012. The Hindus, Cherokee and Hopi tribes and Q'ero Indians of Peru also have prophecies regarding 2012. The date also aligns with Egyptian and Incan calendars, as well as with some interpretations of the prophecies of Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce and the I Ching."

I need to grab a phone and call Bullshit. Hang on.

…

…

…

Bullshit.

Starting from the top!

Mayan: Monument 6 suggests something, but it's ONE SENTENCE amongst ALL OF THEIR SCRIPTS. It's not even DETAILED!

Hindus: What? Where?

Cherokee: What? Where?

Hopi: … Yeah, no. They don't.

Q'ero: What? Where?

Egyptian: No. This is BOGUS and debunked. It was ONE researcher who TWISTED scriptures to line up with 2012. This is BOGUS.

Incan: What? Where?

Nostradamus: Probably the first scam-prophet ever. No, the prophecies of his we read in this day and age are mistranslated and twisted to fit events to make him out to be more than he ever was. Nostradamus was never accurate. EVER.

Edgar Cayce: Who? Oh. I googled him just now. A New Ageist who connects crap to 2012. Bullshit.

I Ching: … BULLSHIT. The I Ching is a text that you can use to learn how to tell fortunes and such. IT, ITSELF, SAYS NOTHING! It is a SYSTEM you can use to your own whim, twisting it as needed. It's like saying freaking SCRABBLE can foretell 2012 because you can line the letters up for it! BULLSHIT.

That article is CRAP.

Astrogeek 17 Sep 2010 05:45

Hi Ansley;

First of all, welcome to the site! I'm happy that you found us. It is precisely for people like you that we built this site.

My name is Bill. You can find out more information about me by clicking on my forum signature.

I would like to address the idea that "various cultures predict something will occur in 2012". That is, flat out, a lie.

Some of the cultures frequently cited are some native American tribes, such as the Hopi and the Cherokee. To address this I would like to address your attention to another site: New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans, which is run by various native Americans, who are sick and tired of their culture and beliefs being ripped off by "new age" types. I contacted the administrator and asked a straightforward question, and received straightforward replies: There are no native American beliefs or prophecies regarding 2012. I went further than that, and contacted the second most frequently mentioned tribe, the Cherokee. Their reply was also straighforward: There are no Cherokee "prophesies" or predictions regarding 2012… those are non-Cherokee beliefs projected upon the Cherokee. The group of the Cherokee mentioned is usually the 'Chicamagua Cherokee' which turns out to be a probably fraudulent group.

I received similar responses when I researched the claims that the Hindu, Egyptians and Chinese also predicted something for 2012.

It turns out that the only group to mention 2012 was the Maya, and it was so doggone important to them that they only mentioned it once, in a minor outlying site.

I asked Dr. Mark Van Stone about the Mayan 'prediction', and his response was along these lines:

The "god will descend" inscription means that the Chief will dress up in a ceremonial outfit, stand straight up, as stiff and tall as he could, and emulate the named god during a ceremony.

That's it. That's all the inscription says.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Moo (guest) 17 Sep 2010 06:42

To be fair, it's up to the imagination of the person reading Monument 6, much like the woo-woos and 2012. But… you know, I can see this making sense.

The Chief is dressed as the God of Creation, and hovers over a dead, black space. And then, he ignites a flame there, symbolizing a creation of 'nothing' to 'something'.

I kind of like this.

Moo (guest) 17 Sep 2010 00:52

If the alignment with the 'center of the galaxy' was deadly, why aren't you dead yet? As you've read, it happens every year around December 21st.

Silly, silly woo-woos!

As for the Maya? You know their calendars go far beyond 2012, right? The Long Count is one of, uh, 5 or so calendars.

Opps.

So, what's there to be afraid of? Let's see… natural disasters? Every year since the Earth was spawned. Outer space stuff? Yeah, because a planet that defies gravity and the laws of physics exist (LOL NIBIRU!). Pole Shifts? Why is the earth still floating around then? They've happened in the past! Solar Flares? Sorry, we've survived worse.

What's that leave? Prophets? No one has anything to go with 2012! Not Nostadramus even! And he SUCKS!

Hopi? Lolno.

The Maya? HAHA. No. Well, sort of. Monument 6 briefly mentions 2012 but the text is mostly destroyed. And only ONE sentence in ALL of their transcripts mentions 2012. ONE. Yeah. Pretty significant, yeah? No.

So, really. What's there to go by? People are so convinced 2012 is Doomsday and refuse to back their claims up with logic and science? Pretty much.

Ultimately, Ansley, you get a choice. Do you believe the woo-woos saying Aliens are real and are what built civilizations and constantly monitor us, the woo-woos who claim we'll awaken to spiritual awesomeness, the woo-woos that claim DOOMSDAY!!! was foretold when NOTHING CLAIMS THIS, and the freaking Nibiru Doomsday claimers that have no idea what the hell physics are…?

Or do you believe the Mayan Scholars, historians, the scientists who debunk these claims and know how the things that people claim will kill us all work, the Maya themselves, and other such sources?

If you believe in Group A), you're gonna need some professional help.

If you believe in Group B), congratulations! You have nothing to fear!

And, as I've said before, IF something defies all logic that happens in 2012? Uh… well… it'll supposedly be so suddenly you'll never notice it? It's stupid to be fearful of something you can't stop, in the end.

But do I think something will happen? NO! There's no evidence to it! Being from the start of all this crap, the Maya Long Count Calendar, to all the bogus claims that came after it! Nothing!

Live! Enjoy! Be! You have nothing to fear from 2012! Besides natural disasters that happen every day I guess. And disasters that happen every day. You know, the normal crap that hasn't changed since the beginning of the Earth.

Don't start fearing that now =P

Re: I'm Terrified

TheGreatJuju 17 Sep 2010 01:33

Hi, Ansley.

How do I know that you guys really knoww what you're talking about

All of the articles on this site use references that draw from accepted science in the relevant fields. You can also cross-check anything we tell you against other relevant sources of your choosing, just be sure you're using a scientific source and not some crackpot blog you found through Google.

I could easily turn your question around and ask, "How do you know the doomsayers know what they're talking about?"

Have you asked yourself that question?

I mean, I want a family and to graduate college.

And there's no reason you shouldn't pursue those goals.

I can't pinpoint one specific thing that scares me the most.

You might benefit from reading UndeadxNurse's article on fear.

Such as the Maya and Alignments and such….

Just know that the Maya devised a calendar for counting days, called the long count calendar, and that calendar can be divided into sections called uinals, tuns, katuns, baktuns. These can be thought of as similar to our weeks and months and years, but some of them are longer. One baktun is equivalent to 394.25 years. The thirteeth baktun of this calendar ends on the date we called December 21, 2012. The Maya offered no predictions about a doomsday at this time or anything else of that nature. As far as anyone knows, the only thing the Maya would have expect around this date is a celebration of the next baktun and some religious ceremonies, much like our own New Year's Day. Descendants of the ancient Maya in the Guatemala region seem to agree with this, because they still uphold many of the old traditions and calendars, and none of them seem particularly concerned about this date. ;)

The alignments of planets, alignments with the "dark rift" in the galaxy and so forth — these claims range from insignificant to absurd. All of them are addressed on this site. See these pages:

http://www.2012hoax.org/planetary-alignment
http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-alignment
http://www.2012hoax.org/solstice-alignment
http://www.2012hoax.org/black-hole
http://www.2012hoax.org/galactic-plane
http://www.2012hoax.org/dark-rift

I found this post that says many cultures including the Cherokees are predicting something in 2012.

Complete and utter bunk. The Cherokee had nothing to say about 2012, and the same goes for the Hopi. These claims are fictional.

Even if such claims had been made by one or more ancient cultures, why would you believe it? There have literally been thousands of doomsday prophecies since the beginning of recorded history, and every single date that has come and gone has proved those prophecies to be lies. There's no reason to expect that this will change.

"A Brief History of the Apocalypse"
http://www.abhota.info

The article also says John Major Jenkins admits it isn't the end.

John Major Jenkins is not really a doomsayer, but none of his ideas about 2012 have any validity, either. He also makes claims about the Maya that are unsupported by scholarly studies of that culture. See this page. However, he is correct that the Maya did not predict a doomsday for 2012, though he has contradicted himself on this.

I just need someone to talk to.

I think you'll find that just about everyone here is more than willing to listen to your concerns and address them to the best our ability. Hopefully, I've been of some help. Don't hesitate to post again, as often as you'd like.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

Last edited on 17 Sep 2010 01:44 by TheGreatJuju Show more

Ansley (guest) 17 Sep 2010 14:58

Something that brings me a little comfort is when TV shows or something like that is extended beyond 2012. Or to hear NASA say they have plans to do things eyond 2012…..Sometimes that helps….Sometimes it doesn't.

UndeadxNurse 17 Sep 2010 15:13

The Maya long-count calendar continues or, resets to the 13th Baktun, as explained here, however there are other calendars that extend beyond 2012.

I feel some-what silly to cite my own work, but there are some things that you can try to ease your fears, but remember that nothing is concrete and as explained, it's up to you to accept facts and to will yourself to move on.

I'm sure that many of us will be more than glad to aid you along the way.

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Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.

Darren conah (guest) 17 Sep 2010 21:24

Hi ansley i have suffered the same problems and cone through it

If u wish to contact me for a talk, please do, I want to help

moc.em|hanocnerraD#moc.em|hanocnerraD

Lindsay (guest) 19 Sep 2010 18:08

Hey Ansley!
I am a 21 year old female and I went through EXACTLY what you are going through. It's all the"what ifs" and no matter how much information is piled on and proves that nothing will happen, it wont calm your fears. I know, trust me. My doc put me on anti-anxieties and im perfectly fine now! maybe you should look into that?
if you need anything or just someone to talk to, email me
moc.loa|4022recnadynit#moc.loa|4022recnadynit
i hope you get the help you need!

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 20 Sep 2010 13:58

Hi Ansley, hi Lindsay, hi everybody!

Do not fear asteroids; do not fear planets’ alignment.
The year 2012 is a usual year.
But there is one strange coincidence. Physicists, who are experimenting with particles collisions, can create droplets of dangerous subnuclear condensates. Ordinary matter can be captured and ruined by those growing droplets. As a result, the Earth can be exploded in a period of 500-1000 days.
So, do not seek for the medicine help, but try to do something to stop powerful colliders all over the world: RHIC, Tevatron, LHC and so on.
Ask the President and Chief of a Prosecutors office of your country to stop colliders, to put the global terrorists, who are “the best physicist of the world”, into prison.
That, probably, will save your lives.
Do not be lazy. Save yourself.
The 9-th of November 2010 CERN plans to begin the heavy ions collisions. That is extremely dangerous for our beautiful planet.

Astrogeek 20 Sep 2010 14:43

Ivan;

With all due respect, you are a complete and total jerk.

You barge in to a site that is not connected to your wacked-out ideas at all, and start talking to people who say that they are frightened of 2012, and tell them to be afraid of yet another thing?

People; Ivan Gorelik is a physics crank with delusions of grandeur. He thinks that his ideas about physics have merit, in the face of multiple refutations by people with actual degrees in physics.

A thread discussing his nonsense can be found at http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/Very-Affraid-By-Ivan-Gorelik%26%2339;s-Theory-On-Lhc_26582.html

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 20 Sep 2010 15:15

Ivan Gorelik is a physics crank with delusions of grandeur.
Prove your words by math. Try to find errors in my math and logic.

A thread discussing his nonsense can be found at http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/Very-Affraid-By-Ivan-Gorelik%26%2339;s-Theory-On-Lhc_26582.html

Read that thread, and you will see a verbal diarrhea of my opponents. You also will be able to see some of my conclusions.

So if you want to live, ask the President and Chief of a Prosecutors office of your country to stop colliders, to put the global terrorists, who are “the best physicists of the world”, into prison.
That, probably, will save your lives.
Do not be lazy. Save yourself.
The 9-th of November 2010 CERN plans to begin the heavy ions collisions. That is extremely dangerous for our beautiful planet.

Astrogeek 20 Sep 2010 16:20

Try to find errors in my math and logic.

That problem has already been solved.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

3WMElliott 20 Sep 2010 15:29

Real smooth Ivan, real smooth…

Even in trying to give a damn about people, you fail to give a damn about them.

Re: I'm Terrified

LauraLynn 20 Sep 2010 16:35

I think its time for an LHC page!

Re: I'm Terrified

Astrogeek 20 Sep 2010 16:45

we actually have one at LHC. It doesn't appear to be linked to the side menu yet, I'll fix that in a bit.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Re: I'm Terrified

Astrogeek 20 Sep 2010 17:22

it's been added.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Re: I'm Terrified

LauraLynn 20 Sep 2010 17:43

If they thought it would cause harm, why would they do it? But, is there ANY chance of it creating a blackhole or strangelet that could harm mankind?

Moo (guest) 20 Sep 2010 17:46

If you take the heart the saying 'anything is possible!', sure. Why not. I guess it could happen.

Do I think it will happen? No. No reason to even begin to think it would. And even if it did, Hawking Radiation strongly suggests nothing would happen anyway.

But, wow. Holy crap, He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named! Did you seriously do that? Did you SERIOUSLY do that? What the hell is your problem, you sick bastard? What the hell were you thinking? Remember that suggestion about playing Russian Roulette with yourself? Load the magnum with six bullets instead.

Kevin (guest) 20 Sep 2010 17:55

You-know-who needs to develop some morals.

Re: I'm Terrified

3WMElliott 20 Sep 2010 18:35

There are better people here than me to answer the specific LHC side of that question (but it amounts to 'No', in simple terms), but on the whole 'why would they do it' thing, that's science in a nut shell.

Why would Barry J. Marshall drink a Petri dish of bacteria? Because he knew what the effects the would be, and in doing so proved that bacteria is the cause of most peptic ulcers. Bit of an extreme example perhaps, but let's link it to the LHC…

We mere humans, we specks on the surface of the Earth, have banded together to build a particle accelerator that is colder than the space between the stars, that can move protons at 99.999999% the speed of light, that has huge detectors capable of 600 million images a second, that can, for the briefest of moments, create conditions similar to those found less than a billionth of a second after the Big Bang - you simply cannot achieve this by bolting some tubes together and flinging protons together. You need years, decades of previous testing, experimenting, the building of slower accelerators even to be able to get this far.

And someone comes along who doesn't know a thing about it and spouts off that it'll destroy the world on a given date.

Mike Poulin (guest) 20 Sep 2010 18:53

So the LHC is basically not anything to worry about at this point and the one that this Ivan guy is talking about is a lie.

3WMElliott 20 Sep 2010 19:11

Pretty much, yeah.

Ivan's talking about the LHC, but as Astro has pointed out wherever he springs up on the Internet his claims get shot down pretty quickly.

Jessica (guest) 20 Sep 2010 18:55

Thanks to the comment Ivan posted, I think my anxiety reached a whole new high. So, now the world will end this year because some dumb scientists want to turn on a machine that could sweep us into a black hole? Or turn the earth into a freaking tennis ball?!??!?! OMG. I just don't know how much more I can take! My babies are only 23 months and 8 months….WHY don't they just shut up with this doomsday crap? OMG……..

Astrogeek 20 Sep 2010 19:03

Ivan is a fool who spouts off talking about things that he doesn't understand.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Jessica (guest) 20 Sep 2010 19:10

So, he can't be taken seriously? He doesn't know anything about the LHC? Does he hold a Ph.D or anything? Like, what is his title?

3WMElliott 20 Sep 2010 19:17

An a*** with a Ph.D can still be an a*** if you'll pardon the expletives.

Saying that though, he calls himself Dr. Dark Energy. Last time I checked, the likes of Stephen Hawking don't need to be called "Dr. Black Hole" to get attention, they do a little thing called publishing theories and embarking on the scientific method, whereas Ivan just says things like:

"The Earth will be blown up by the scum, who call themselves as scientists. Society you are a stupid cattle - because, despite the existence of this and similar web-sites, you did nothing for the detention of terrorists, physicists from CERN and other scoundrels, sitting in academies and promoting this blasphemous experiment."

Professional way to get your point across, isn't it?

Moo (guest) 20 Sep 2010 19:31

Can you even get a PhD with one year of training?

Astrogeek 20 Sep 2010 19:46

He is not taken seriously. His claims are contradictory to the known facts of physics. There is no such thing as a 'magnetic hole'. His math has been ripped apart as being deficient. He can't get his ideas published in any refereed journal. All he can do is file frivolous lawsuits against the LHC and make forum posts on sites like ours in order to try and draw attention to himself. It is clear that he does not have a degree in physics. He is not a "Dr." of anything.

I consider his posts to be deranged ranting.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Jessica (guest) 20 Sep 2010 20:18

So, what's his Ph.D in? He has filed lawsuits against the LHC? Were they dismissed? I'm sorry. It's just that yall have seen my previous thread and now this guy has got me so freaked out! Are they really going to turn it up to like a super high power on 11/9/10? Have strangelets been proven, or are they theory?

Alene Y 20 Sep 2010 20:26

Hi Jessica,
I can't find any information indicating that he has a PhD in anything.

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 21 Sep 2010 07:49

Hi Alene Y!
I have no any PhD.
But I participated at several international conferences. The organizers of conferences usually invite scientists like this: "Dear Dr …! We invite you to take part in our conference…"
The title "Doctor Dark Energy" I take at the beginning of 2000-th, when I computed the temperature of background radiation in the Static/Stationary model of Universe. My result was 2.728 K. Observable value is 2.725 K. In Big Bang model of Universe they had found that Hubble constant does not change with time. So, in order to save the model, they invent a "dark energy" which has antigravity properties and accelerates the expansion of Universe. In my model I was aught to find the analogues substance, which can have antigravity properties, in order to sustain the closed Universe against the gravity collapse. I found it! It was a usual radiation. If a radiation has a temperature 2.728 K then my model of Universe do not expand and do not shrink.

That is why I myself take the title "Dr Dark Energy".

Jesica wrote: He has filed lawsuits against the LHC?
Walter Wagner, Luis Sancho, Otto Rössler and some other people indeed filled lawsuits against organizations, promoting the dangerous experiments at powerful collides, RHIC and LHC. Judges do not know the physics. They used the falsified information, widespread by criminal physicists, who make their money at those experiments.
Afaik, all lawsuits all over the world were rejected by judges.
As for me, I wrote several letters to presidents of different countries, to chiefs of prosecutors' offices and to some other authorities. I tried to organize protest meetings. But all were in vain. Secretaries believe the criminal physicists and throw out my letters into rubbish. Police believed the criminal physicists and demanded to stop the our protest meetings.

Have strangelets been proven, or are they theory?

There were observed many events, like destruction of strangelets, created in collisions of cosmic particles and atmospheric particles. It is clear that a strangelet, created by cosmic and atmospheric protons, which have, for example, the rest energy about 1 TeV, must also have a kinetic energy about 1000 TeV. The last energy is much greater comparatively to the binding energy of constituent element of the strangelet, which is about 0.0001 TeV. That is why a strangelets, created in a "cosmo-atmospheric" particles, decay, making an unusual showers of secondary cosmic particles. But a strangelet, which can be created at collider, with the rest energy about 1 TeV, can not have the kinetic energy about 1000 TeV, but visa verse, - it can have the kinetic energy less than the binding energy of constituent element of the strangelet, - less than 0.0001 TeV. In this case it will not be overheated, it will not be exited, but it can capture the ordinary nuclei and transform them into it’s own strange nucleons (usd).

Strange matter, which is N(uds), and which was theoretically investigated, is not the only possible dangerous matter, which can be created at powerful colliders. The others dangerous subnuclear condensates are: magnetic holes, consisting of bosons, smallest vacuum magnets; 2-d generation matter; mixtures of strange nucleons and neutrons; and so on. The energy of a single p-p or HI-HI collision at contemporary colliders is sufficient in order to create a dangerous droplet, consisting of 1000 of constituent elements. It is known: the more the number of elements in a droplet, - the more the probability that droplet would be stable and would be able to grow and ruin the ordinary matter.
In fact, physicists-suiciders at CERN are looking for such droplets in order to use them as the energy sources. They want to be the richest people of the planet. But they rather explode the Earth with those sources and will kill us all. That is why, all best physicist of the planet are the most dangerous terrorists, and that is why they all must be locked in prisons now. The 9-th of November can be the first day of Earth explosion. The duration of the explosion is about 500-1000 days. Is a 2012 year a coincidence?

Read for example an article: Interaction of strangelets with ordinary nuclei.
arXiv:1003.4901v1 [nucl-th] 25 Mar 2010

But the article of Luis Sancho is more truthful http://www.cerntruth.com/?p=125

Astrogeek 21 Sep 2010 08:15

The title "Doctor Dark Energy" I take at the beginning of 2000-th, when I computed the temperature of background radiation in the Static/Stationary model of Universe. My result was 2.728 K. Observable value is 2.725 K.

Wow. Quite a stretch for you there, considering that COBE measured it as 2.725 in 1992!

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Ivan's posts scare me, too!

(account deleted) 20 Sep 2010 20:20

Hi Jessica,

You said

Thanks to the comment Ivan posted, I think my anxiety reached a whole new high.

Ivan's posts scare me, too: They show me what kinds of people are out there, running around loose. Other than that, there's nothing worrisome in them.

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Jessica (guest) 20 Sep 2010 21:04

So, does he make any type of profit from claiming this stuff? Is he taken seriously by anyone? I tried to google him and the only thing that came up was his site. Dr"Dark Energy"?? I also posted a question on YahooAbswers about him and I got this response from "Raymond"

Seems like every year, in September, Dr "Dark Energy" comes out with the same lie.

Must be an anniversary of when he got his own research funding denied, or something similar.

If he is the real Dr Gorelik, he is a radiologist, so he is used to ionizing radiation and calculations involving the same kinds of units as in particle physics. But, to my knowledge, he is NOT an expert in particle physics.

In other words, he knows the jargon, but not the topic.

BTW, according to his calculations, we are already dead (in fact, some of us were never born, as Earth no longer exists).

3WMElliott 20 Sep 2010 21:12

Well there you go, that about sums it up - False claims, bad maths, no credibility.

RickardM 20 Sep 2010 21:56

So, does he make any type of profit from claiming this stuff? Is he taken seriously by anyone? I tried to google him and the only thing that came up was his site. Dr"Dark Energy"?? I also posted a question on YahooAbswers about him and I got this response from "Raymond"

Jessica, if there is anyone anywhere on the internet that you shouldn't pay the slightest attention to then I would dare to say that it is Ivan Gorelik. He is an complete and utter fool with no credentials whatsoever in particle physics/quantum mechanics/string theory and on top of that he has a completelly distorted self-image (kind of like Messiah complex). He has made so many claims by now that it is hard to give a number of failed predictions, but they would be somewhere in the area of 15-20 and counting.

In other words, he knows the jargon, but not the topic

It turns out that he doesn't even know the jargong or terminology used by real scientists, but that doesn't stop him. He simply invents own words, that's how brilliant he is.

Honestly, I've seen his posts at every physics forum and LHC dito frequently the past couple of months (just as I predicted when the schedule for the heavy ion programme was announced) and nowhere has any of his ideas even been taken seriously. The only reason for that is that he presents nothing that corresponds to our current understanding of the standard model of physics in general and particle physics in specific. So just ignore him, he hasn't got a clue what he is talking about. None whatsoever

So don't give him the pleassure of frightening you, because that is his only goal in life, to make people feel as lost and confused as he is.

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Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan

Alene Y 21 Sep 2010 00:52

Ah, Raymond found more than I did. I'm familiar with Raymond's answers and he gives good ones. To explain a little further, a radiologist interprets medical x-rays and other medical images, such as sonograms. It doesn't give him a background in particle physics, but it does give him the right to be called Dr.

Astrogeek 21 Sep 2010 05:59

I don't think that Dr. Ivan Gorelik, a Radiologist at Kaiser Permanente in Kensington, MD is our physics crank. I think he probably has the misfortune to have the same name as "Dr. Dark Energy".

This is Gorelik's "CV" from his website:

The citizen of Russia. Now live in Ukraine. Nationality: Ukrainian.
Was born the third of January 1958 in the Nikopol town, Ukraine, USSR.
1965-1973 - Elementary School.
1973-1977 - Nikopol Agricultural School; specialty — agricultural mechanization.
1977-1979 - Army.
1980 entered into Dnepropetrovsk State University, and in
1981 moved into Moscow State Correspondence Pedagogical Institute and begin to work as physics teacher.
1985 finished the Institute and received the profession of physics teacher.
1992 (after the USSR was disintegrated) dropped teaching and worked in small commerce.
1998 - 2004 did not work anywhere, build my house, and spend all my time with my theory, Space Genetics.
2004 - 2007 worked at the secondary school as a physics and astronomy teacher.
2008 till now spend all my time to stop and ban the dangerous scientific experiments, such as particle collisions in powerful colliders.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_thread/thread/62f9af4e91b77673?hl=en#
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/41917 (scroll down to the comments)
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=214932&highlight=#214932
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=205402&highlight=#205402 (he's been banned there apparently)

Gorelik has invented several new theories, including "space genetics", the "arc effect" which apparently overturns our current ideas of stellar fusion, and a 1-meter diameter nuclear fusion reactor.

---

"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Re: I'm Terrified

LauraLynn 20 Sep 2010 23:13

Aren't there other machines like the LHC in operation? Did Ivan jump on this bandwagon when it was first started? Also, why are people so worried it can cause a cataclysm?

Moo (guest) 21 Sep 2010 00:02

Yes, the RHC or something along those lines. I think I'm missing a letter, or I may be entirely wrong on it, but yeah. There was one before the LHC, and I think one before the one before it, too.

This is not "NEW!" stuff we're working on. The energies the LHC is colliding ARE higher, but it's NOTHING compared to what the Universe has been hurling at us for millions of years.

RickardM 21 Sep 2010 00:18

Yes, the RHC or something along those lines.

Close, RHIC (relativistic heavy ion collider). There are quite a few more still in operations, even the Tevatron if I'm not mistaken. But just as you say, cosmic rays constantly dwarfs any earthbound accelerator (reaching well beyond 10^21eV whereas LHC only reaches 10^12-13eV). That is a gigantic difference, and still we haven't observed any universe destroying phenomena. THAT gives us a very very reliable upper limit on when experiments might become dangerous and that is certainly not during our, or our childrens, lifetime.

---

Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 21 Sep 2010 08:18

RickardM wrote: //But just as you say, cosmic rays constantly dwarfs any earthbound accelerator (reaching well beyond 10^21eV whereas LHC only reaches 10^12-13eV). //

Rickand I must repeat the following especially for you:

There were observed many events, like destruction of strangelets, created in collisions of cosmic particles and atmospheric particles. It is clear that a strangelet, created by cosmic and atmospheric protons, which have, for example, the rest energy about 1 TeV, must also have a kinetic energy about 1000 TeV. The last energy is much greater comparatively to the binding energy of constituent element of the strangelet, which is about 0.0001 TeV. That is why a strangelets, created in a "cosmo-atmospheric" particles, decay, making an unusual showers of secondary cosmic particles. But a strangelet, which can be created at collider, with the rest energy about 1 TeV, can not have the kinetic energy about 1000 TeV, but visa verse, - it can have the kinetic energy less than the binding energy of constituent element of the strangelet, - less than 0.0001 TeV. In this case it will not be overheated, it will not be exited, but it can capture the ordinary nuclei and transform them into it’s own strange nucleons (usd).

Strange matter, which is N(uds), and which was theoretically investigated, is not the only possible dangerous matter, which can be created at powerful colliders. The others dangerous subnuclear condensates are: magnetic holes, consisting of bosons, smallest vacuum magnets; 2-d generation matter; mixtures of strange nucleons and neutrons; and so on. The energy of a single p-p or HI-HI collision at contemporary colliders is sufficient in order to create a dangerous droplet, consisting of 1000 of constituent elements. It is known: the more the number of elements in a droplet, - the more the probability that droplet would be stable and would be able to grow and ruin the ordinary matter.
In fact, physicists-suiciders at CERN are looking for such droplets in order to use them as the energy sources. They want to be the richest people of the planet. But they rather explode the Earth with those sources and will kill us all. That is why, all best physicist of the planet are the most dangerous terrorists, and that is why they all must be locked in prisons now. The 9-th of November can be the first day of Earth explosion. The duration of the explosion is about 500-1000 days. Is a 2012 year a coincidence?

Read for example an article: Interaction of strangelets with ordinary nuclei.
arXiv:1003.4901v1 [nucl-th] 25 Mar 2010

But the article of Luis Sancho is more truthful http://www.cerntruth.com/?p=125

TheGreatJuju 21 Sep 2010 08:32

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=26582

Like Raymond Mardyk's before him, I think our friend Ivan has taken it upon himself to game search engines. That must be it, a publicity stunt, because he has yet to post a single word that makes sense.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

Last edited on 21 Sep 2010 20:35 by TheGreatJuju Show more

RickardM 21 Sep 2010 11:35

Rickand I must repeat the following especially for you: There were observed many events, like destruction of strangelets, created in collisions of cosmic particles and atmospheric particles. It is clear that a strangelet, created by cosmic and atmospheric protons, which have, for example, the rest energy about 1 TeV, must also have a kinetic energy about 1000 TeV. The last energy is much greater comparatively to the binding energy of constituent element of the strangelet, which is about 0.0001 TeV. That is why a strangelets, created in a "cosmo-atmospheric" particles, decay, making an unusual showers of secondary cosmic particles. But a strangelet, which can be created at collider, with the rest energy about 1 TeV, can not have the kinetic energy about 1000 TeV, but visa verse, - it can have the kinetic energy less than the binding energy of constituent element of the strangelet, - less than 0.0001 TeV. In this case it will not be overheated, it will not be exited, but it can capture the ordinary nuclei and transform them into it’s own strange nucleons (usd).

Crap, crap and crap. But then again, at least you are consistent in what you present. Could you give me a source for your claims that Strangelets has been observed in CR? As far as I know they are still only hypothetical (at best).

Strange matter and Strangelets are not in any way the same thing, yet you consistently make the mistake of mixing them up. Deliberately?

As for the arXiv article: "It is not ruled out that Centauro events may have their origin in strangelets, although these suggestive results are still to be analysed in further details." Is that your "proof" for their existence?

Perhaps you would like to point me in the right direction of what support you find in that article?

But the article of Luis Sancho is more truthful http://www.cerntruth.com/?p=125

This should pretty much sum it all up. He links to (a) an arXiv article and (b) Luis Sanchos page, and his conclusion is that the latter is more truthful(!?)

Ivan, can you answer two questions for me?

1. What is Sanchos credentials in physics?

2. How do you expect an Ice-9 scenario to be possible when Pauli exclusion would rule that out?

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Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 21 Sep 2010 14:09

RickardM wrote: Crap, crap and crap. But then again, at least you are consistent in what you present. Could you give me a source for your claims that Strangelets has been observed in CR? As far as I know they are still only hypothetical (at best).

From the article Interaction of strangelets with ordinary nuclei
L Paulucci and J E Horvath
arXiv:1003.4901v1 [nucl-th] 25 Mar 2010

The hypothesis of stability for strange quark matter (SQM) [1, 2, 3, 4], a cold form of
QCD plasma composed of u, d, and s quarks, naturally leads to the consideration of its
existence in the interior of neutron stars [5, 6, 7, 8, 9]. It has been conjectured that if
this is indeed the case, then some astrophysical events could eject finite pieces of SQM,
called strangelets, in the Galaxy. Thus, the latter would “contaminate” the cosmic ray
flux in the interstellar medium (ISM), forming an exotic component among ordinary
nuclei (however, see [10, 11] for definite counterexamples from strange stars merging
simulations).
It has been suggested that strangelets of high baryon number lose mass in
successive interactions with ordinary nuclei from the top of the atmosphere during their
propagation towards the earth’s surface. When their baryon number reaches a value
for which their mass is lower than the minimum one associated with stability, A_crit,
they decay into ordinary hadrons.

…
Pay attention at the date of publication of this article.
And you will be able to find my old posts with the analogues logical conclusions about A_crit. But I used N_crit.

RickardM wrote: Strange matter and Strangelets are not in any way the same thing, yet you consistently make the mistake of mixing them up. Deliberately?

Read Wikipedia-aricle about "strange matter", "strangelets" and "strange stars". I've red it several times much earlier.

And I'll add: Dark matter can be made of one of the following condensates:
N(uds); strangelet or strange star.
N(uds)K(udd); strange/neutron mixture.
N(css); second-generation matter.
N(css)K(uds)L(udd); mixture of …
…
M_(N); magnetic hole.
…

Any of these matters can be aggressive and can ruin the ordinary matter if at certain N_crit it's mass will be less than the mass of usual nucleon.

Ivan, can you answer two questions for me?
1. What is Sanchos credentials in physics?

Sancho did understand that physicists can explode the Earth mach earlier than me. Sancho must be honored as one of the best reasonable physicists of the world.

2. How do you expect an Ice-9 scenario to be possible when Pauli exclusion would rule that out?

1. Ice-9 scenario has no explosive character, but the Earth can be exploded.
2. Pauli exclusion principle can be eliminated by pairing of constituent elements of a condensate. Not all condensates, mentioned above, can be denied by this exclusion principle.

Mike Poulin (guest) 21 Sep 2010 14:20

Ivan please go away You're Wrong and you know you're wrong but you don't want to admit it. Why should we believe you when you got the same claim wrong 2 years ago why should we belive you now.

Kevin (guest) 21 Sep 2010 15:54

Ivan, can you answer two questions for me?

1. What is Sanchos credentials in physics?

Sancho did understand that physicists can explode the Earth mach earlier than me. Sancho must be honored as one of the best reasonable physicists of the world.

Answer the question

Re: I'm Terrified

3WMElliott 21 Sep 2010 00:15

Loads of others, in all shapes and sizes - the LHC just happens to be the one with the biggest numbers, the more expensive, the more interesting to the public… and with all of that comes the most misunderstood by the public, because it is so much easier to spread doom and gloom stories about something everybody knows about, than say the Tevatron in Illinois.

Yes folks, slap bang in the middle of America (ish) is the second highest energy particle accelerator on the planet (the highest being the LHC). How many doomsday claims were made about that one?

LauraLynn (guest) 21 Sep 2010 01:00

http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html

Astrogeek 21 Sep 2010 04:55

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/04/dr_dark_energy/print.html

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 21 Sep 2010 08:29

LauraLynn wrote: http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html

Dear Laura, I have found several crude errors in the Safety documents of CERN and published them on my web-site and at some forums. There were no real contr-arguments from my opponents, but as it was many times earlier, they tried to prove me to be a fool because I am just a fool. But where are their math and logic? Did you see it? Give me a link.

You can read this my page:
Crude errors in the LHC safety documents. What will LHC give us, the particle of God, or magnetic trap of Devil? http://darkenergy.narod.ru/tezeng.html

bikenbeer2000 21 Sep 2010 09:49

Dear Ivan

You wrote:

Ask the President and Chief of a Prosecutors office of your country to stop colliders

And here we find:

December 2, 2009 I have delivered petition to the Prosecutor’s Office
of Russia.

That's more than 9 months ago. Please enlighten us as to the Prosecutor's reply.
What's the Russian for 'raspberry'?

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 21 Sep 2010 11:38

December 2, 2009 I have delivered petition to the Prosecutor’s Office of Russia.

That's more than 9 months ago. Please enlighten us as to the Prosecutor's reply.

A couple of month’s I left Moscow and moved home to Feodosia. My son had read me a response from the Prosecutors’ office of Russia. He said that my petition was sent to Russian Academy of Sciences.

Earlier, when I was in Moscow, I tried to investigate the paths of my earlier multiple letters, addressed to President and to Prosecutors office. I visited Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS), found a man, who is responsible about the received mail. He said that my letters were sent to a Physics Division of RAS and he had give me a phone-number of a secretary. I phoned her and she told me that my letters were sent to the Section of Nuclear Physics and she give me a phone-number of the secretary. I phoned there and young secretary said me about LSAG-report and about we are safe according to LSAG. I tried to explain her about the errors, made in LSAG-report, but she was unable to understand and dropped a phone-tube. I suspect that she send responses to secretaries of President and Prosecutors office about the same, - about the existence of LSAG-report.

The only single response I received from Ukrainian National Academy of Sciences. They repeated about LSAG and added about ConCERNed. So, as you can see, the most of physicist do not have their proper brains, but repeat the words and errors of LSAG.

So be ready to die. Presidents do not know about the danger of LHC. There is no the force, able to stop the global suicide.

RickardM 21 Sep 2010 11:49

So, as you can see, the most of physicist do not have their proper brains, but repeat the words and errors of LSAG.

… Because Ivan is the only person on earth that really understand physics

So be ready to die. Presidents do not know about the danger of LHC. There is no the force, able to stop the global suicide.

As I said, you go first, then the rest of us can come after. It might be a while, but nevertheless….

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Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 21 Sep 2010 12:58

Me: So, as you can see, the most of physicist do not have their proper brains, but repeat the words and errors of LSAG.

RickardM: Because Ivan is the only person on earth that really understand physics

No. I am not the only person.

I would divide contemporary physical society at three groups:

1. Reasonable thinkers. This group can undergo any generally accepted idea to doubt. Persons of this group have their own vision on the world, according to their education, further work and selfeducation. This group is very large. The most of them are quite weak. They do not understand Special Relativity and try to invent Ether model of Universe. Some of this group is very strong. They do not ruin relativity theory but go further. The most known persons from these group are: Otto Rössler http://lhc-concern.info/?page_id=91 , Walter Wagner http://lhcdefense.org/ , Luis Sancho, Raier Plaga. The most known persons in Russian-language countries are: Vasiliy Golota http://n-t.ru/tp/ng/ps.htm , Vladimir Atsykovsky http://www.atsuk.dart.ru , Leonid Shirshov http://pereplet.sai.msu.ru/text/shirshov1.html , Evgenij Dovgel http://dovgel.com/kvv.htm . This non-completed list I would finished by my web-site http://darkenergy.narod.ru/biz.html
2. The second group of physicists are physicist-criminals. They were the first persons to understand about the danger of LHC but they say us now about of safety of LHC. This group includes even two Nobel Prize Winners. It seems they are ready to lie us about the safety of LHC collisions because they were bought by CERN.
3. The third group of physicists do not interested in the consequences of LHC. Persons of this group are unable to make scientific discoveries. Most of them even do not know the mass of a dangerous droplet/particle, which can be created at LHC. Most of them are good professors, repeating the texts, written in scientific articles and books; or they are good employees who are interested only in their narrow branch of science. This group is dangerous because they repeat and repeat for thousands times the crudest error of the LSAG about cosmic rays.

So be ready to die. Presidents do not know about the danger of LHC. There is no the force, able to stop the global suicide.

RickardM 21 Sep 2010 14:06

They do not ruin relativity theory but go further. The most known persons from these group are: Otto Rössler http://lhc-concern.info/?page_id=91 , Walter Wagner http://lhcdefense.org/ , Luis Sancho, Raier Plaga.

Do not, under any circumstances, come here and claim that Sanchos claims correspond to anything that is even close to the standard model of physics (Neither does Wagners, but Sancho is even more far off). And you, well I'm not going to kick on someone that is already down… My sisters daughter, age 5 months, is able to produce more relevant physics than you and your complete list of crackpots can do all together.

And the funny thing is that only one of them have any credentials in anything close to particle physics. Shall we have a go at them? Otto Rössler - Biochemistry/Chaos theory, Walter L Wagner - Nuclear safety inspector/Botanist/Teacher (poor children), Luis Sancho - Philisopher/Theorist (without any credentials), Rainier Plaga - The only one with actual credentials in physics, and he was proven wrong by LSAG. Not all that impressive to be honest. Or well, compared to you either one of them has greater credentials, but that doesn't really mean much. Just because you scream the loudest doesn't make you right, you know?

As for the Russian scientists, haven't gone through them all but what I've found is that some of them work with string theory and quantum mechanics and doesn't even seem to be talking about LHC at all (just about 4D, so I guess that supports your theories, right?). I'm sorry but my Cyrillic is a little rusty, so I might have missed something here. If so, I'm sure you will be kind enough to point it out to me…

2. The second group of physicists are physicist-criminals. They were the first persons to understand about the danger of LHC but they say us now about of safety of LHC. This group includes even two Nobel Prize Winners. It seems they are ready to lie us about the safety of LHC collisions because they were bought by CERN.

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself this question: Wouldn't they be equally dead as us if the earth were destroyed? So what would they have to gain if this experiment were going to kill us with the probabilities you give? Would they have any use of the money CERN "bought" them for if they were dead?

So be ready to die. Presidents do not know about the danger of LHC. There is no the force, able to stop the global suicide.

…

I'm done with this (again), feel free to rant on as much as you like. It only help with proving our point (that you are indeed a really sick a**hole

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Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan

Last edited on 21 Sep 2010 14:40 by RickardM Show more

RickardM 21 Sep 2010 11:45

You can read this my page: Crude errors in the LHC safety documents. What will LHC give us, the particle of God, or magnetic trap of Devil? http://darkenergy.narod.ru/tezeng.html

This might sound rude Ivan, but I'll go ahead anyway; you seem very keen on pointing out that we "shouldn't be afraid of performing our sacred mission and start of to the stars", right?
My proposal is this; We'll give you a head start of two months (although I doubt you will see any stars in your afterlife), so feel free "to start of to the stars", ALONE.

I usually remain rather calm, but sick human beings such as yourself really makes me upset. How can one person find so much joy in scaring innocent people? Did you have a rough childhood by any chance? My guess is yes, and since I have at least twice as many credentials in psychology than what you have in physics I must be right. Or…?

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Facts are stubborn things.
- Ronald Reagan

Crazy2012 (guest) 21 Sep 2010 13:06

What's this guy's problem? I mean, does he honestly think that something thats o much money has been spent on and so much time has been focused on is going to kill everyone? Does he think if he won a lawsuit, he'd get paid? Also, on the money topic, Geryl said he wanted 1 BILLION dollars, what does he think it'll just be handed over to him and he'll be set for life? BEYOND 2012! Why is Gorelik trying to scare these poor girls who are onviously already terrified?

CaneLaz 21 Sep 2010 16:20

Well,

According to Geryl,it's for building a survival center in the Sierra Nevada mountains. I'm not going fault anyone for that if they think the world is gonna end. I really think people like Geryl and Gorelik believe what they're saying. It doesn't make them right however.

Re: I'm Terrified

LauraLynn 21 Sep 2010 18:55

So has Ivan alreadt predicted the exact same thing before? What are they going to do differently on 11/9/2010 that is differt from they are already doing? Is the LSAG report correct?

Re: I'm Terrified

Astrogeek 21 Sep 2010 19:09

Yeah, pretty much. Ivan sees himself as a crusader against the experiments he considers dangerous. Apparently his one year at university and 4 years in correspondence school to become a physics teacher trumps all of the combined knowledge of the scientists actually working on the project.

The LSAG report is the LSAG report… a safety report by an independent review body. I'm not qualified to judge it's correctness or not. But, neither is Ivan. I accept the report. I think they've covered their bases in reviewing the potential risks, and their arguments that the collider is safe are convincing to me.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Re: I'm Terrified

LauraLynn 21 Sep 2010 19:22

So the people who created the LHC aren't the ones who wrote that safety report? This stuff, the stuff I don't understand, os what scares me the most.

Re: I'm Terrified

Astrogeek 21 Sep 2010 20:34

That's correct.

Here, read this:

The safety of particle collisions at the Large Hadron Collider has been questioned in the media, on the Internet and through the courts. Particle physics experiments were ongoing as of March 2010 at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), the world's largest and most powerful particle accelerator, built by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) near Geneva, in Switzerland.[1][2] The claimed dangers of the LHC particle collisions, which began in November 2009, include doomsday scenarios involving the production of stable micro black holes and the creation of hypothetical particles called strangelets.[3]

To address such concerns, CERN mandated a group of independent scientists to review these scenarios. In a report issued in 2003, they concluded that, like current particle experiments such as the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC), the LHC particle collisions pose no conceivable threat.[4] A second review of the evidence commissioned by CERN was released in 2008. The report, prepared by a group of physicists affiliated to CERN but not involved in the LHC experiments, reaffirmed the safety of the LHC collisions in light of further research conducted since the 2003 assessment.[5][6] It was reviewed and endorsed by a CERN committee of 20 external scientists and by the Executive Committee of the Division of Particles & Fields of the American Physical Society,[7][8] and was later published in the peer-reviewed Journal of Physics G by the UK Institute of Physics, which also endorsed its conclusions.[5][9] The report ruled out any doomsday scenario at the LHC: the physical conditions and events that will be created in the LHC experiments occur naturally in the universe without hazardous consequences.[5]

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 06:43

What are they going to do differently on 11/9/2010 that is differt from they are already doing?

11/9/2010 they begin to collide heavy ions. Probability of creation of dangerous condensates is about 10-100 times more. Creation of subnuclear condensate leads to the explosion of the Earth.

Is the LSAG report correct?

No. I found at least 4 crude errors in LSAG-report. No one real physicist had give a single contr-argument against my conclusions about the errors.

LauraLynn (guest) 21 Sep 2010 20:51

So, they AREN'T actually CERN, but it WAS formed and funded by CERN? So, in other words, these people know their stuff about the safety of the LHC and the possibility of strangelets or black holes…or anything that could destroy the earth. We should trust this report and take what Gorelik says about them with a grain of salt????

TheGreatJuju 21 Sep 2010 21:02

We should trust this report and take what Gorelik says about them with a grain of salt????

There's no reason to doubt the safety report, and I wouldn't even waste salt on Ivan Gorelik.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

3WMElliott 21 Sep 2010 21:27

Iunno, salt works well against slugs.

So I've heard… *ahem*

Astrogeek 21 Sep 2010 21:07

The reportS were written by various people, including some CERN (but not LHC) scientists, but also some independent scientists not affiliated with CERN. The reports have been reviewed by various independent bodies who have all agreed that the conclusions of the reports are correct. Read the article at the link above, but especially this section regarding the CERN commissioned reports and the other publications.

Ivan Gorelik should be ignored like the tinfoil-hat-wearing net.kook that he is.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 07:55

The reportS were written by various people, including some CERN (but not LHC) scientists, but also some independent scientists not affiliated with CERN.

There are only two reports:
1. STUDY OF POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS EVENTS DURING HEAVY-ION COLLISIONS AT THE LHC: REPORT OF THE LHC SAFETY STUDY GROUP
written by 6 people in 2003: J.-P. Blaizot, J. Iliopoulos, J. Madsen, G.G. Ross, P. Sonderegger, H.-J. Specht.
2. Review of the Safety of LHC Collisions, written by "LHC Safety Assessment Group" consisting of 5 physicists: John Ellis, Gian Giudice, Michelangelo Mangano, Igor Tkachev and Urs Wiedemann.

These two reports are falsifications, invented especially in order to calm the world's crowd of people, who do not understand the physics.

These reports have crude errors and lie assertions.

Here is a quote from the article "THE BLACK HOLE CASE: THE INJUNCTION AGAINST THE END OF THE WORLD" written by ERIC E. JOHNSON:

p.858
quote
Much more blunt was renowned University of Manchester
physicist Brian Cox:
“Anyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the world,” he said, “is a
twat.”356
J. The Best Answer
In August 2008, with the public opening of the LHC coming within weeks,
John Ellis gave a talk in the CERN auditorium in which he sought “to provide
the ammunition” that CERN people could use to convince others that the
collider poses no danger.357
After reviewing the scientific arguments that the LHC is safe, Ellis
explained that a question that worried him more than whether humanity was
safe from the LHC, was the opposite—whether the LHC was safe from
humanity.358
Ellis then briefed the audience on unfavorable press reports, the various
lawsuits filed to stop the LHC, and a public opinion poll indicating that most
people thought the LHC was not worth the risk.359 Ellis also introduced the
audience to Richard Posner, whom Ellis said he found “really worrying.”360
Wrapping up, Ellis came to what his presentations slides labeled “The Best
Answer.”361
“So, to finish,” Ellis said, “the way to stop all this argument about whether
the LHC is going to destroy the planet is to get the LHC working.”362
“Within a few weeks time, we will know that LSAG was right.”363
the end of quote-

Ivan Gorelik should be ignored like the tinfoil-hat-wearing net.kook that he is.

And me, Ivan Gorelik, was ignored and banned at almost all physical forums (Russian, English, French). My theory of magnetic hole was ignored. My discoveries about 4 crude errors in LSAG-report were ignored. Physicists of CERN did not know anything about these errors and about a magnetic hole.
Who had banned me?
Moderators of forums.
Who are moderators?
Most of them are computer specialists but they are not physicists. Some of them are physicists but they have an instruction from CERN to ban anyone, who tries to speak about danger of LHC.

Leaders of CERN demanded to say everywhere about the zero risk. So me and such as me were banned. This is the cause why the leaders of CERN do not know about magnetic hole and about the crudest errors of LSAG.

That is why, be ready to die. Physicist will create microscopic droplets of aggressive dangerous condensate. In 500-1000 days that will lead to Earth explosion, to suicidal reproduction act of Biosphere.
I wish to all you a happy flight to stars. Do not fear to die. Fulfill your sacred reproduction mission.

Moo (guest) 22 Sep 2010 08:32

And now, I will ask you the one question no one has bothered to ever ask you.

He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named, what happens if you're wrong? Will you make a public apology to CERN for your ceaseless efforts against them?

This is not "If nothing happens even if you're right about the risks." No, I'm not asking that. I am flatly asking you "What happens if you're wrong?"

What will you do if you're wrong?

You seem convinced that this >will< happen, when your 'math' suggests more a Coinflip Scenario. This is what bothers most people, likely. The fact your scenario is effectively a 'call it in the air!' thing is likely what makes people raise their eyebrow.

You were wrong before. Every time. With them boosting the power now to another insignificant level, you're up in full force again.

Hrm. Suspicious pattern. Well, who cares about that! You, answer question: What will you do if you're wrong?

Jessica (guest) 21 Sep 2010 21:33

So, what are they going to do in November that has him in such an uproar? Yall, this stuff has got me scared! Is it possible that they've missed something in that report and we could be gone in less than 2 months?!?!?! Are they going to do something that haven't already done? If NASA thought 2012 was the end, or even November, why would they be working on stuff for 2015, the asteroid landing and stuff? I don't understand this stuff, so it makes me more worries than I already was. Can someon dummy down to me the chance of a blackhole or a strangelet or dark matter or whatever that could destroy us? PLEASE!

Jessica (guest) 21 Sep 2010 21:41

Why would they go into building this machine if they knew it could destroy the earth and all of us to go along with it…..I mean, I just don't undersatnd! They have to know the consequences if something messes up! Lord, I wish I'd never heard of this crap…I really don't know how much more I can take…I'm running out of sanity!

CaneLaz 21 Sep 2010 22:03

Don't worry about the LHC Jessica. Ivan isn't exactly credible. You can go to any physics forum and see him get his butt handed to him.

bikenbeer2000 21 Sep 2010 22:14

Jessica. Just remember this. All the scientists working on the LHC have families. They have wives, husbands, partners, children and parents. If they thought that what they were doing had even the remotest chance of causing harm to those people, they would put a stop to it. The same applies to the scientists preparing the reports and the independent scientists reviewing the reports. Then there's every scientist worldwide who's following the progress of the LHC. Where are all their objections? And you're prepared to take the word of a single crank over all those thousands of people? All you need to do is think calmly and rationally about it and you will come to the same conclusion as ther rest of us. There's nothing to worry about.

Jessica (guest) 22 Sep 2010 00:55

I know they wouldn't do anything to harm their families, but if there's a chance of one of those things happening, I just don't think it's worth it! I mean, are billions of people worth it? I'm sorry, this stuff just scares me really bad! How can they be 100% sure??!?!?!

Moo (guest) 22 Sep 2010 01:01

What about the people who first began to toy with electricity? How were we so sure it was going to be safe, and end up the amazing product it is today?

It's advancement, love. We've done a pretty good job of only making a handful of things that could ultimately kill us, and that's only if their use is mistreated.

As it stands, I strongly doubt the LHC will do anything to us. But you never know, it could be turned into a DEATH RAY!

Seriously, the LHC is perfectly safe.

(account deleted) 22 Sep 2010 01:31

Jessica,

Have you looked at the site that Ivan referenced above? If not, please do so.

http://darkenergy.narod.ru/biz.html

Be sure to read all of the hysterical accusations, the comparisons of his opponents to Hitler, etc. Think of a lunatic standing on the street corner, screaming at passersby, and you'll have a pretty good idea of Gorelik.

Especially, scroll down to the very bottom. You'll find an appeal for money. Take a look at how much he's received: $50 U.S. Whoopee. That's how miserably few people there are who believe anything he says.

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 08:33

How can they be 100% sure??!?!?!
No. Not 100%

Quote from ERIC E. JOHNSON's article //
Instead, the issue of LHC risk is one of low probabilities—risks such
as one in 5,000, one in 100,000, one in a million, or even lower. Thus, the
relevant question to ask is, would particle physicists tolerate a higher risk of
catastrophe from their experiments than the rest of humanity might?
The answer is quite obvious. Of course they might. And that answer is not
mere speculation. Physicists have actually published a hard number: Busza,
Jaffe, Sandweiss, and Wilczek regarded a one-in-5,000 risk of destroying Earth
as “comfortable.”682
End of quote//

But pay attention! Physicists of CERN do not know about magnetic hole and about the errors in LSAG-report because we were banned at forums and ignored by secretaries of authorities.

Ivan Gorelik should be ignored like the tinfoil-hat-wearing net.kook that he is.

And I was banned, ignored. Discovered errors were ignored. Magnetic hole, developed theoretically by me, was ignored and was unknown.

I know they wouldn't do anything to harm their families,

Their assessed risk to die is millions times smaller than the risk to lost their highly-paid job places. They do not know about magnetic holes and about crude errors in LSAG-report.

That is why, be ready to die. Physicist will create microscopic droplets of aggressive dangerous condensate. In 500-1000 days that will lead to Earth explosion, to suicidal reproduction act of Biosphere.
I wish to all you a happy flight to stars. Do not fear to die. Fulfill your sacred reproduction mission.

Moo (guest) 22 Sep 2010 08:38

Please remember your words!

"Magnetic Hole >THEORY<". You said it yourself. I'm putting spiffy arrows around the key word.

Do not state it as a fact now to try to scare the poor girl. You have nothing to gain from trying to invoke fear into someone who is already scared to heavy levels. What do you have to gain, if you think there is something to gain? Are you hoping she decides to be a Crusader, straps a bomb to her chest, and heads over to the LHC and dies for your idiocy?

What do you have to gain from any of this? You've already admitted that your scenario is a coinflip, at the very best.

"Magnetic hole, developed theoretically by me, was ignored and was unknown."

Please tell everyone that this is from your own definition of physics, and not the commonly used and accepted version by the rest of the world, sans maybe a few of your devote followers/whoever you ripped your math from.

And let's ignore CERN and the stupid forums you've posted on. Have you presented your theory to the various highly-renowned physics institutes across the globe?

No?

Why are you trying to destroy this girl, again? What do you have to gain?

I love repeating myself~!

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 09:22

Why are you trying to destroy this girl, again? What do you have to gain?

No. I want to save her, to save myself, my children and my granddaughter (today, several hours ago, I become a grandfather!)

If you also want to save all of us, let we welcome some real physicist. Let's ask him to answer 10 my short physical questions. Let he answer under his real name.

I think if CERN physicists are honest and responsible, then they will agree to answer my questions. Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist.

Go! Welcome somebody of them. Let they prove that they are not the global terrorists.

Failscience (guest) 22 Sep 2010 08:42

You're a pathetic waste of air, Gorelik.

I, for one, will be happy to see you meet your own demise, while the rest of us live our lives.

"Magnetic hole, developed theoretically by me, was ignored and was unknown."

"Theoretical"- Lacking practical application or actual existence

In other words, even you don't know anything for fact.

In which case, Gorelik, you're full of shit and you're a pathetic excuse of a human.

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 09:31

In which case, Gorelik, you're full of shit and you're a pathetic excuse of a human.

How old are you? I am 52. Do you feel a pleasure then you name people by crude words. Are you mentally helthy?

If you also want to save all of us, let we welcome some real physicist. Let's ask him to answer 10 my short physical questions. Let he answer under his real name.

I think if CERN physicists are honest and responsible, then they will agree to answer my questions. Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist.

Go! Welcome somebody of them. Let they prove that they are not the global terrorists.

Moo (guest) 22 Sep 2010 09:56

But that's already been done, sir. Or do you honestly think PhysForum is controlled by CERN?

Come now, you've already been shown your errors. And you're crying the whole "THEY ARE CONTROLLED BY CERN!" lie again.

Do your own work. Submit your theories to any of the reputed Physics Institutes of the world. They can't ALL be controlled by CERN, right?

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 10:52

I wrote:

If you also want to save all of us, let we welcome some real physicist. Let's ask him to answer 10 my short physical questions. Let he answer under his real name.
I think if CERN physicists are honest and responsible, then they will agree to answer my questions. Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist.
Go! Welcome somebody of them. Let they prove that they are not the global terrorists.

Moo wrote:

But that's already been done, sir. Or do you honestly think PhysForum is controlled by CERN?

Please, show me their math. I saw only a diarrhea about my person and education. That has no any scientific validity.
Moo wrote:

Come now, you've already been shown your errors.

Please give me a more precise link with their math and logical deduction.

Do your own work. Submit your theories to any of the reputed Physics Institutes of the world. They can't ALL be controlled by CERN, right?

I visited Moscow city last year especially in order to speak with physicists. I was not permeat to enter into Physical Faculty of Moscow State University. But I was permeated to speak with Savrin, who is a coordinator of Russian mission at CERN. At first his responses were scientific, but when I asked about the crudest error, comparison with cosmic rays, Savrin did not give a direct answer, but started to speak verbal diarrhea, - “all is relative in this world” and other rabbish with the purpose to go out from the direct answer.
I phoned several times to Tkachev (one of the criminals, who had signed the LSAG-report). But every time I phoned him, his secretary had invented a successive lie about his absence.

I repeat your sentence:

Do your own work. Submit your theories to any of the reputed Physics Institutes of the world. They can't ALL be controlled by CERN, right?

I wrote letters to different other Universities (Dnepropetrovsk, Simpheropol…). I asked to collect a conference or something else. But I did not receive a response.
I wrote thousands of letters to physicists of CERN and out of CERN. I received only a couple of answers, where they again repeated the crudest error about cosmic rays.

I repeat your sentence:

Do your own work. Submit your theories to any of the reputed Physics Institutes of the world.

Submitted. But I did not receive any answer, containing math or logic arguments.

I repeat:
If you also want to save all of us, let we welcome some real physicist. Let's ask him to answer 10 my short physical questions. Let he answer under his real name. I think if CERN physicists are honest and responsible, then they will agree to answer my questions. Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist. Go! Welcome somebody of them. Let they prove that they are not the global terrorists.

A Wise Reader (guest) 22 Sep 2010 11:24

Ivan Gorelik, you wonder why you were banned?

"If you also want to save all of us, let we welcome some real physicist. Let's ask him to answer 10 my short physical questions. Let he answer under his real name. I think if CERN physicists are honest and responsible, then they will agree to answer my questions. Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist. Go! Welcome somebody of them. Let they prove that they are not the global terrorists."

Repetitive posts of the same exact sentences over time become spam, these actions are also slander and harassment which are illegal and can result in a DMCA Takedown of a website, or forum. Your assertion "Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist." can result in a Federal investigation, not of CERN, but of yourself and the website that you submitted the sentence to.
You are 52, but you have the common-intellect of a five year old.
Do show some common-intellect, common-courtesy and common-sense when utilizing any forum, as it is respectful to both site/forum owner and readers alike.

UndeadxNurse 22 Sep 2010 09:58

It would seem to me that you are the one who is mentally unhealthy.
Only a complete moron would suggest something such as a bombing at the door step of any company or, laboratory.

Considering that you're 52, you're obviously not the brightest crayon in the box, if you were, you would know that "Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance" can be justly used as evidence for a planned attack.

In spite of your ignorant response to Failscience brutally calling you out, you have failed to touch on key notes of his or, her post..

"Theoretical"- Lacking practical application or actual existence

In other words, even you don't know anything for fact.

In spite of the personal attack, which honestly, I see the personal attack as justifiable, you utterly failed to respond to these key points, rather than responding to these key points, you continued to babble on about CERN like any other moron without vital evidence to support their claims.

Submit your theory to peer-review or, just shut the hell up.
You can not say that every scientist is in on a cover up, there are indeed scientists who would make it known that your claim has any validity to it, however since you also fail to submit your claim to peer-review, I'm forced to believe that you're simply full of hot air, at which point, you're not worth the time of day.

A note to Astro..
Ivan Gorelik's sentence

Otherwise, if that girl would bomb herself in front of LHC entrance, that will be in the responsibility of CERN criminal physicists, who are the global terrorist.

is harmful material, in the format that it's worded, it sounds as if he's planning 'something' and that will most certainly throw up a red flag for this site and for Ivan himself.

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Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.

lolololcheese (guest) 22 Sep 2010 10:04

lol you just got owned by a girl

Moo (guest) 22 Sep 2010 11:27

Girls are the superior gender by far. How is this a surprise?

Anyway, He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named, you're free to go view PhysForum and see the math they launched at you. I don't really want to find links for you, because I have to read through your posts and that's just a headache waiting to happen.

As for you supposedly speaking to a Russian CERN Scientist who started getting all babble-headed on you, I question this.

1) I call bullshit.

2) If it were true, I bet you were hardly presenting yourself in a serious manner to thusly be taken seriously.

As for you not being allowed into Physics Institutes, gee. Maybe your lack of a Ph.D (One year of training to become a physics teacher =/= doctor in Physics) and questionable knowledge and practices, combined with your suggested terrorist attacks on CERN make individuals not want you around?

You claimed to have submitted your work, and it got shot down. Do you THINK for a moment that they went over it and laughed it off? I doubt they saw your name on it and trashed it. They likely didn't see anything to respond to, especially with your given hostile and insane nature when it comes to your work being torn into.

By all means, google your own conceited name. PhysForum is pretty high on the list with the thread where a number of Physicists there do your math for you and point out your errors. Granted you then try to justify your errors by making them right and the 'Normal Practice of Physics' wrong, or did we forget your activities a few months back?

You've been shown your work and it has been found wanting. I shall now quote Lord of the Rings for you.

Ahem.

"LEAVE NOW, AND NEVER COME BACK!"

Thank you.

UndeadxNurse 22 Sep 2010 11:40

Only one of several posts by Ivan Gorelik on the PhysForums.
Enjoy seeing his ass get roasted.

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Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.

Moo (guest) 22 Sep 2010 11:35

Actually, I >STRONGLY< suggest leaving the material here and to actually report it to the FBI. Let's enjoy nailing the coffin he just dug himself.

UndeadxNurse 22 Sep 2010 11:44

Actually, I >STRONGLY< suggest leaving the material here and to actually report it to the FBI. Let's enjoy nailing the coffin he just dug himself.

There's a problem with that, 'A Wise Reader' is correct, if certain material remains, it could provoke a DMCA take down of the site, even though Astro, nor anyone else here shares Gorelik's views, Astro is still responsible, and accountable for the posts on his forum, so if someone posts something that is slandering or harassing and it's reported, Astro can get the short-end of the stick by association and allowing it to remain in place for others to see the slander, etc. and even though it is helpful to show just how much of a lunatic this guy is, it's still harmful to the forum, especially the bombing part.

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Wie Sie säen, so sollst du ernten.

A Wise Reader (guest) 22 Sep 2010 12:03

Proper action would be to save a copy of the material that was submitted, remove the material and report the material and the user to the proper authorities. If you believe that there are intended threats within the material, the proper authorities would be the law, if you believe that the material only consists of slander and/or harassment, then it is best to save a copy and remove the material to avoid a possible DMCA takedown, submit the user to EFF; http://w2.eff.org/bloggers/lg/faq-defamation.php

I've reported it.

(account deleted) 22 Sep 2010 11:59

I just reported it to the FBI. Having read Gorelik's website, I'm afraid he really is crazy enough to do something dangerous, and the longer Gorelik's post stays up here, the more trouble Astrogeek could have.

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Ivan Gorelik (guest) 22 Sep 2010 12:38

I just reported it to the FBI. Having read Gorelik's website, I'm afraid he really is crazy enough to do something dangerous, and the longer Gorelik's post stays up here, the more trouble Astrogeek could have.

It would be great if FBI arrested all CERN terrorists. That would save all of us. That would save the FBI too. Otherwise, physicists-terrorists can kill us all, including FBI.

Somebody wrote earlier:

Ivan Gorelik should be ignored like the tinfoil-hat-wearing net.kook that he is.

Go! Ignore and ban me and such as me.
Nobody must try to stop the CERN in their experiment with Earth’s explosion.
Do not fear to die. Perform your sacred mission; - bring your DNI to other stellar systems.

Let´s Stop Here

(account deleted) 22 Sep 2010 12:51

I think it would be a good idea to stop replying to Gorelik until Astrogeek can read these last few posts and act appropriately.

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"I was glad to be able to answer him promptly and with confidence. Without hesitation, I told him I didn't know." Mark Twain

Re: Let´s Stop Here

Astrogeek 22 Sep 2010 13:07

I am locking this thread.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Re: Let´s Stop Here

Astrogeek 22 Sep 2010 13:13

Alright, let's all calm down.

Regarding the threat: Threats of violence are never cool. However, in this case Ivan was responding to Moo's question about what he (Gorelik) wished to accomplish, and it was Moo who first introduced the whole "strap a bomb to her chest" thing.

As far as I can tell, this thread does not constitute a DMCA problem (which is a copyright thing).

I also don't think that it constitutes a 'terrorist threat'.

I consider myself a reasonable adult (which is an important legal standard, actually) and I don't think that Gorelik issued a threat.

So, for now, the thread will remain up, and administrators and moderators can still post to it, but everybody else is locked out.

I may elect to remove the entire thread later in the day, after I've had a chance to get some coffee and food into my system.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Last edited on 22 Sep 2010 13:14 by Astrogeek Show more

Re: Let´s Stop Here

Alene Y 22 Sep 2010 20:47

Although it would be contrary to our usual practice, I believe we should ban Ivan from the site. Our purpose is to save lives, but this lunatic is using the site to spread his fear mongering nonsense. He is likely to be the cause of deaths, and he is doing it on our site.