Just want to say that I am glad this article is available here. It is such a good and succinct essay. Thanks for the hard work of contacting the author and putting it up.
very interesting stuff but has joseph robert jochmans spoken on the supposedly second maya inscription that even has a video with a stone that says 2012?
That has only been brought up here about a hundred times.
http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-415102/2nd-maya-reference-to-2012
http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-416358/help-i-found-this-and-is-freaking-me-out-mexico-adds-yet-ano
my question is this negative or positive is it a transformation or the end of the world and sorry if i bother you too much
It is neither. It isn't even known whether the second inscription actually refers to a Gregorian date in 2012. The wording on one of the bricks suggests it isn't even indicative of a future event, but rather something contemporary (at the time) or historical, or it could refer to any number of dates (because the calendar referenced is not the Long-Count).
Seriously, this is much ado about nothing. Even if the Maya had predicted doom and gloom (they didn't), we have absolutely no reason to care. Stop worrying about it.
so eve nif the maya predicted doom, the world would not end?
last question so even if they had predicted that on december 21st 2012 the world were to end we have absolutely no reason to care why is that?
Why should we not care about predictions? Does a few thousand years of failed predictions from every corner of the globe not give us a bit of a hint as to how useful predictions are?
In the time since the Maya, we've come to explore the wonderful world of science, where we know an absolute bucketload more about not just the Earth, but the concept of the solar system in which it sits, the galaxy in which it is flying through, the Universe beyond that. No matter where you look in that Universe, no matter what scale you view this planet in, there is nothing to indicate it's sudden destruction at a set point in time next year. Nothing. Nada. Zip. You can think of plenty of other words I'm sure.
You could have a hundred predictions, a thousand predictions, predictions from every man, woman and child to have set foot upon this Earth, but if those predictions do not agree with the wealth of evidence staring us in the face, they aren't really very good predictions, are they?
We don't believe in the Mayan gods or their mythology. If they had actually made a prediction, it would be related to their mythology and their gods, thus there would be no reason for us to believe in it either.
I got a question you say that if they actually had made a prediction it would be related to their mythology and their gods them why are there 2 references that talk about december 21st 2012 and what is a 60 cycle hum
I got a question you say that if they actually had made a prediction it would be related to their mythology and their gods them why are there 2 references that talk about december 21st 2012
We don't know that the second reference is even a reference to 2012. Even if it is, as was pointed out by 3WMElliott in another thread, that brings the grand total to a whopping … two. Yes, two. The allegedly all-important magical date of 2012 — assuming for argument that the latest reference is indeed to 2012 (which is doubtful) — has been mentioned two whole times in all of known Mayan archeology.
Wrap thy brain around that. Two. Twice. That's it. And probably just once.
and what is a 60 cycle
What? There is the 52-year Calendar Round. There is the 260-day Tzolk'in. I have no idea what you mean by "60 cycle." Regardless, who cares? Why does it matter?
hum
Yeah, hum.
All of that notwithstanding, in what way does any of this suggest a prediction by the Maya would not be rooted in their mythology? In fact, the one definite reference to 2012 that we have is absolutely rooted in their god myths.
in the end what does the reference and has mark van stone adress the rumors of the so called second reference?
I'm not sure if this is the right one.
http://markvanstone.com/videos/close-up-maya-glyphs-on-stela-e-hard-to-read-but-not-impossible/
hi once again i was seeing the video above and when it ended there were alot of videos that instead of debunking just talk about survival mainly about patrick geryl and he is talking about elenin what is that
You mean what was that. The comet "Elenin" broke up in mid-September and no longer exists.
Doomsday proponents claimed it would have all sorts of world-ending consequences… needless to say, it did not.
Hear the music before the song is over…
in the end what does the reference
The reference refers to a date from a different calendar. Meaning, when you compare it to the Long-Count (which is what all the 2012 hysteria is about), it's difficult to pinpoint an exact correlation. It could refer to any number of dates, past and future, as the specific day-month combination in question repeats every 52 years.
has mark van stone adress the rumors of the so called second reference?
I don't think so, but then you shouldn't need him to.
Bear in mind that there is a glyph at the Temple of Inscriptions referring to Gregorian year 4772, and another at a site in the Coba ruins refers to date 13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.0.0.0.0, which is some 3 quintillion years longer than the age of the universe, past or future. There is no end-of-the-world "prophecy" for 2012, at least not by the ancient Maya.
I repeat: even if there were (and there isn't), so what?
I got a question you say that if they actually had made a prediction it would be related to their mythology and their gods them why are there 2 references that talk about december 21st 2012
The second reference is probably not a reference, as stated by TheGreatJuju. So, there is officially just one reference to this date. Don't you think that, if this date is so important to the Maya there should be more references?
what is a 60 cycle hum
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I read that as a separate (and completely unrelated) question.
The only time I've heard that phrase is relating to the "hum" (or buzz) heard in electrical transformers, from an electricity supply that's either 50Hz or 60Hz (60 hertz = 60 "cycles") depending on which country you're in.
Is that what you mean? What in the heck does that have to do with anything Mayan?
I must've read it wrong!
Hear the music before the song is over…
I got a question has anyone thought of the what if scenario what if debunking 2012 the world actually ends because there has been alot of seismic activity in puerto rico there was 2 earthquakes in the morning hours of saturday?
The what if cases your anxiety.
But since you like what-if, I will give you a few.
- What if 2012 is a hoax?
- What if 2012 proponents are insane?
- What if 2012 proponents are liars?
- What if 2012 proponents are scammers?
- What if 2012 proponents are sect leaders?
the world actually ends
What does that even mean? How does the world "end?"
because there has been alot of seismic activity
On average, there will be dozens to hundreds of earthquakes recorded on any given day.
in puerto rico there was 2 earthquakes in the morning hours of saturday?
And you think this is significant or unusual … why, exactly?
What if… you look up the details about earthquakes, Puerto Rico and the fault line a stone's throw away in the Puerto Rico Trench?
What if then you realise that two earthquakes in such a zone (or any area on the planet for that matter) does not a world-ending scenario make?
Hear the music before the song is over…
I gave you the wrong impression i do not have any psycological issues is just that in my college they were giving a maya seminar and they said that the mayas were really smart and knew what numbers were even before science and had calculated every single date to the 2012 date that is all that is why i get worried?
in my college they were giving a maya seminar and they said that the mayas were really smart
The Maya were very smart for their day, but there seems to be this widespread misconception that they were uncannily so. They weren't.
and knew what numbers were even before science and had calculated every single date to the 2012 date
The Maya were excellent mathematicians, but the proposed Gregorian correlation of 12-21/23-2012 was never calculated at all. It's just where a unit of time happens to end as counted from a starting point.
Let's say I invent a unit of time called the Jujuweek. It will cycle across 52 days, starting right now. Lo and behold, some enterprising doomsayer realizes that the last day of this Jujuweek is Gregorian date February 7, 2012. Oh noes! There will be a full moon on that day! Earthquakes! Tsunamis! Possibly an asteroid pulled into us due to the alignment with the Sun!
What the doomsayer will never mention, however, is that any repeating unit of time, over time, will eventually correlate with some astronomical event. Because astronomical events are common. That's why it's such a common practice to base calendars on them. The fact that this Jujuweek ends with a full moon means precisely nothing, just as the Mayan baktun ending on our Gregorian date of December 21/23, 2012 means precisely nothing.
that is all that is why i get worried?
Why worry? There's nothing to worry about.
And what does any of this have to do with your original post about earthquakes? Are you trying to claim that the Maya predicted earthquakes?
Hi Kurtis,
Earthquakes have nothing to do with the world ending, which it isn't doing anytime that we need to worry about. Earthquakes have been happening for billions of years and will continue to happen.
"The USGS estimates that several million earthquakes occur in the world each year. Many go undetected because they hit remote areas or have very small magnitudes. The NEIC now locates about 50 earthquakes each day, or about 20,000 a year."
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/year/eqstats.php
not at all my cousin was saying that 2012 is near and he is warning us because is better for people to be prepared and not wake up at 11:11 with a boulder on our face
not at all my cousin was saying that 2012 is near
Yeah, strange how it's always somebody's cousin, friend or little brother.
and he is warning us because is better for people to be prepared
Be prepared for what? How? What exactly is he "warning" you about?
and not wake up at 11:11 with a boulder on our face
What does that even mean? Why do these nuts always mention 11:11, but refuse to mention that the time is actually closer to something like 11:11:38 (I forget the exact second), which we round to 11:12? In fact, the UNO lists the winter solstice of 2012 as occurring at — you guessed it — 11:12.
Why is this significant? How could this particular moment relate to us "[waking] up … with a boulder on our face?"
Earthquakes, Maya math (which you've apparently misunderstood), and now vague allusions to 11:11 numerology and cosmic impacts. What exactly are you trying to say?
i apologize i got scared i am not tyring to say anything is just i live in puerto rico and there have been showing a spanish show called apocalipsis maya and i got scared because i am just 21 years old i do not want to die that's all
The Maya never said a word about an apocalypse in 2012, so any show that claims otherwise is lying. Even if the Maya had said such a thing, it should be of no concern to you.
There are all sorts of ways you can die, at any time: aneurysm, acute appendicitis, traffic accident, stroke, heart attack, carbon monoxide poisoning or sepsis. The news is pretty good for you though, because the average Puerto Rican male (I assume "kurtis" is male) can expect to live 74.7 years. In the inevitable event of your death, be it tomorrow or sixty years from now, I can virtually guarantee that it will have nothing to do with the Maya, Mayan prophecies or global cataclysms predicted by Internet cranks and pseudoscience authors.
I guess a possible exception is if you go into the field of archeology, and somehow you have the misfortune of a giant Mayan stone monument falling on you, but I would think even that is so unlikely as to warrant little to no concern.
In short, don't worry. If you do worry, make sure you do so over something real and worth worrying about.
those comments are really helpfull but a concern that i have is the popol vuh it is said according to the popol vuh a compilation of the creation accounts of the k'iche maya of the colonial eras we are living in the fourth world. the popol vuh describes the gods first created three failed worlds followed by a sucessfull fourth world in which humanity was placed.in the maya long count the previous world ended after 13 baktuns of roughly 5,125 years the long counts zero date was a set at point in the past making the end of the third world and the beginning of the current one which corresponds to 11 agust 3114 bc in the proleptic gregorian calendar this means the fourth world will also have reached the end of 13 baktuns or mayan date 13.0.0.0.0 on december 21st 2012. with maud worcester makensom writing with the completion of a great period of 13 baktuns would have been of the utmost significance to the mayas
Strange, because nobody who actually studies the ancient Maya for a living has concluded anything for the sort.
In any event, what are you trying to say? You believe Mayan myths?
No. the problem is that my wife she is studying in college native america and she was doing research on the wikipedia page adressing the 2012 phenomenon and she read about the fifth worlds and she became so distraught about the subject and she even started to aknolewdge maud makemson as a catalyst for the so called mayan doomsday prophecies the question above is from the wikipedia page what should i do should i accept that we are living in the fourth world based on the fears of my wife?
So your wife believes Mayan myths? Why?
In any case, the whole 13-baktun cycle business is a purely modern invention. If your wife learned that in class, she needs to seriously check into her professor's credentials.
http://www.famsi.org/research/vanstone/2012/faq.html
Also, you should consider that the Popol Vuh was written in the 16th Century CE, and it contains no references to dates whatsoever, 2012 or otherwise.
the thing that bothers me is these lady called maud worcester makemson why is she so certain that for the mayas the 13 baktun would have been of the utmost significance?
I never heard of her, but I'd be more inclined to listen to the experts like Johan Normark. He expects the calendar to continue to the next bak'tun and go on up to 20 bak'tuns. After that, we won't be around to worry about what happens to the Mayan calendar.
but the question i asked the why a princeton geologist made the frighttening conclusion that the mays predicted the end of the world for december 21st 2012 as he has a show on the history channel 2012 countdown to armageddon!
Well Charlie,
I suppose this person did it for the money. What you should keep in mind though, is that geologists know about the composition and workings of the Earth, not about ancient civilizations. Mark Van Stone and Johan Normark are the guys you should be listening to for information on the Maya and on Mayan inscriptions. There is no Mayan prediction, by the way. There is only the Tortuguero Monument 6, which says one of their gods is going to come down and dress up. That means one of their priests will dress up like the god and perform a ceremony.
The Princeton geologist you are referring to I think is Adam something. I am forgetting his last name. He does NOT support doomsday in 2012. You were apparently hearing what you wanted to hear, which was the History Channel's intentions.
He stands against the idea that geographical pole shifts can occur, or have occured in the past.
The guy in the show is geologist Adam Maloof and he is not predicting it. In fact, he is a contributor to this article which explains that a rapid pole shift is not going to happen.
although it is likely that the day may passed like any normal lets hope where here december 22 2012 to update these article isnt that kind of a red flag?
Dude … it's a joke.
If you saw a movie about human shaped lumps of mud walking around… would you believe it to be real?
What if they were made of wood? Was Pinocchio real?
That covers worlds 2 and 3.
As for world 4, I can't speak for you, but I do not bleed corn.
Why then should a fifth world be any more real?
Hear the music before the song is over…
The Princeton Geologist's name is Adam Maloof. He has been on some of Nat Geo's doomsday programs, but I haven't found anything where he said that the Maya made any prophecy. I wouldn't put any credence to it if he did because that isn't his area of expertise. It is the field of Mark Van Stone and Johan Normark, so I choose to believe them.
Adam Maloof did say, on one of these programs, that the continents have shifted around over the course of many millions of years, and of course, we know that. Something like 250 million years ago, the continents were all together in one supercontinent, Pangaea. The tectonic plates are always moving slowly and in a few hundred million more years the continents will be in a completely different arrangement from what they are now. Things that happen over hundreds of millions of years, however, are not anything we need to worry about.
By far the best way to arm yourself against these fears is with the knowledge and understanding of the real facts behind all the doomsday theories. This very site has a wealth of information that will help you do just that.
Read through it and you'll very quickly realize there's nothing in any of them to be afraid of - with the bonus that you'll also be able to spot new nonsense theories and dismiss them.
Hear the music before the song is over…
There's no need to apologize, Kurtis. We just wanted to get the idea across that nothing is going to happen, and that if the world were ending, preparation would be pointless because you can't live without a world to live on.
Don't worry. You aren't going to die because of 2012 unless you get so wrapped up in worrying about it that you walk in front of a bus.
sorry to bother you soo much but i was reading the maya prediction page and the comments about michael d. coe struck me because there is a guy called johnson that says that the site runner bill hudson claimed that the comment michael d. coe about the degenerate end of the world that and bill hudson said that michael coe had taken back and said that the 2012 claims are nonsense is that true at all?
Well, "Bill Hudson" would be me.
I don't know that Coe has ever retracted his statement, which was essentially that there was a 'hint' of apocalyptic events associated with the end of the Baktun.
I have seen some claim that he has done so, but I have not seen any substantiation to that effect.
What I have said, on several occasions, was that "we" (the editorial "we") originally thought (in the mid 1960s) that the end of the Baktun calendar may have been associated with some apocalyptic events. By the way, Coe is not alone in this belief. There was at least one other Mayanist active in the 1960s that felt the same way. However, what Coe was saying was that the Maya may have believed this, and not that he (Coe) or anybody within the archaeological community thought that the Maya were right.
We also have commentary from one of Coe's students (Prof. Mark Van Stone) that he disagrees with Coe, as do most of the Mayanists.
So that's the nuanced answer.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
i apologize is like i said there is a guy i do not remember his first name but the name he runs the forum is johnson he has been using alot of answers from conversations he claims to have had with you and the answers are pretty convincing that's all
Not a problem. Stuff gets changed when it goes through several people, and Coe may in fact have actually retracted that position. He did take it out of later editions of his book. There's a difference between deciding that there is not enough evidence to support a position and deciding that the position is incorrect.
"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind
See Kurtis' question above. I've seen some of the guys saying that Michael Coe has retracted his speculation about what the end of the bak'tun means, but haven't found anything firm about it yet.