Quite one-sided

Summary:

You seem to be focusing on just the "natural disaster" aspect.

Quite one-sided

Sven (guest) 22 Nov 2010 23:18

I haven't carefully read the entire site yet (and I'm not going to claim I did) but from what I can see so far, it appears this site is purely focusing on "natural disasters" like earthquakes, comets, etc.
If I look at happenings around the world, massive protests in "civilized" countries, more and more people opposing the known systems (capitalism, parlementary democracies, etc.), I think 2012 would be a good estimate of an actual turning point; but in humanity, not in the world. I'm not saying this is founded on any research or predictions, it's just what I see happening over the world, and what I personally expect to happen.

If everything goes as I expect, there will be a massive turnaround around that time in the way people act… I think governments will fall by that time, massive protests like in Greece will surface, and the way people look at the world will change. Kind of the "humanity crisis" that makes people rethink issues and life, and in that way "start things anew".

Again, these are my personal expectations, just looking at what is happening now. I'm not claiming it has anything to do with any predictions, but claiming that everything will be OK, and nothing will happen, is in my opinion just as unfounded and "dumb" as blindly believing in a crisis. Everything simply points towards a humanity crisis at this moment, so that would be more probable.

Re: Quite one-sided

CaneLaz 22 Nov 2010 23:22

What makes what's happening now any different then let's say the 60's or 30's? What in your opinion would be the catalyst for such a massive and global collapse? What are your preparations for it? I'm genuinely interested even though at this time I might not agree.

Sven (guest) 22 Nov 2010 23:25

Mainly the fact that now, global communication is a lot easier through inventions like the internet… enabling a large amount of the world population to "think alike" and share thoughts. I think a global protest or collapse will spread much easier because large groups of people are able to communicate with each other, even if they are on the other side of the world. Add to that the government surveillance in many countries has increased extremely the past few years, leading to a sort of "invisible repression"… and that's kind of the recipe for disaster. At some point people get fed up with it. And the surveillance is another thing that is more extreme now than it was in the past, due to more advanced technology.

Also, if I may ask… in what country or area do you live and what was the significant happening there in the 30's and the 60's?

CaneLaz 23 Nov 2010 00:11

Where I live or what time periods I lived through are irrelevant. What is relevant is that there has been more dire events in the past….ie WWII, Cold War. .People have been calling for the end since the beginning.

So global communication is what makes this day and age more susceptible to collapse? I'm just having trouble finding your niche in this? In one aspect you seem happy that these systems are going to implode. On the other hand, you view it as dire?

Where do you stand? And how are you preparing for it?

Jason

Last edited on 23 Nov 2010 00:12 by CaneLaz Show more

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:30

I think my stand on this subject (as far as I really have one) is that it would probably yield both good and bad results if a global collapse happened. On the one hand it would probably kill a lot of people (pretty much any collapse theory includes this) and it would cause a lot of misery… but on the other hand, it may be good if everyone has a sort of "shock", so people are forced to actually thinking how the world works. To rethink how certain people gained power, and to rethink what was actually "wrong" about society that led to this kind of collapse.
While on the one hand a disaster, it could on the other hand be a very good learning experience for humanity in general. While I'm not by any means an expert on history, I think this kind of thing has already happened before a lot… and it probably shaped humans to how they are right now.

Regarding the country where you live etc., that was indeed not relevant to the subject itself, but I was just curious what kind of historical events you were refering to :)

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 00:52

Mainly the fact that now, global communication is a lot easier through inventions like the internet… enabling a large amount of the world population to "think alike" and share thoughts.

This is irrelevant to the 2012 date. If something bad happens it could be in 2010,2011,2012,2013,2014,2015….

What could happen is some nutjob actually believing this 2012 hoax, that gets elected for president. believes that the end is near, and presses the nuke button because she thinks it is her job to start the war since it is in the bible. Self fulfilling prophecy, those promoting 2012 are the cause of it.

Sven (guest) 22 Nov 2010 23:22

A slight addition: on the frontpage there are a few stories about children being "traumatized". I just wanted to point out that "thinking about the meaning of life" probably doesn't really fit in the list… that's actually a good thing to do. Being depressed is an entirely different story. Right now it comes across a bit as "obey orders, be good, don't think for yourself, we'll do it for you".

Astrogeek 22 Nov 2010 23:50

Well, that quote was from a mother of a 7 year old, and it was not "thinking about the meaning of life", it was "questioning the meaning of life"¹, which I take to mean something a bit more serious, especially coupled with the stated depression. In fact, it's almost a euphemism for "thoughts of suicide".

Maybe you're ok with that in a 7 year old (although I kind of doubt it), but I'm not. Especially when the 7-year old in question got their information from a television show.

You might also want to read these three posts from our forums:

http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-262816/ (part1)
http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-264091/ (part2)
http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-268646/ (part3)

As far as it being 'one sided', I agree. We tend to side with the evidence. There is no evidence of any kind of apocalyptic events in 2012. As far as human-induced events, those can happen at any time, and there is no evidence that I am aware of that indicates that there will be any human-induced events in 2012. In fact, your original post you said "I think 2012 would be a good estimate … " In other words, you won't even commit to that date yourself.

So you have brought up one of the more nebulous claims that we frequently see. We're used to this, by the way, in that we have so thoroughly debunked the claims that originate in astronomy, geology and archaeology, that now we're being confronted with even less substantial claims about "what's happening with the economy" or in your case "opposing the known systems".

What is that supposed to mean?

I suppose you can pat yourself on the back and think that you've presented us with a claim we can't refute, but before we can even start you would have to present something resembling evidence.

We are emerging from an economic slump unprecedented since the time of the great depression, but guess what? We are emerging from it. There is turmoil in international relations, and a brewing trade battle with China, but can you honestly say that things are worse now than they were in (for example) 1941?

I don't think you have made your case. You have simply made a very nebulous, and ill-defined claim, and you have not presented any evidence for your idea.

Footnotes

1. The original post is here: http://www.2012hoax.org/comments/comments/show#post-517760

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:05

You know, you could've responded without a personal attack and a "we know all" attitude. I'm trying to discuss a serious point here.

Nowhere have I stated I have evidence. Nor do you have any evidence that nothing will happen related to humanity itself.

If you just want to go shouting around "we know better, we did scientific research, you can't beat us", I think my discussion with you ends here, and I'd rather spend my time on some people that actually want to discuss something, and not just show off how superior they are. And as you can see in my reply to the above post from JasonLaz, I'm willing to actually talk about things with people who give a normal response.

Regarding the quote; those two things appear to be the same to me, but then again, I am not a native English speaker so I may be missing something here.

Astrogeek 23 Nov 2010 00:11

Perhaps you are misreading what I wrote. I made no personal attack on you.

I did, however, attack your claim. Your claim is too loosely defined for us to make any serious rebuttal to it. It is your burden, as the person making the positive claim, to provide evidence for it.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:25

"What is that supposed to mean?"
"I suppose you can pat yourself on the back and think that you've presented us with a claim we can't refute"
If not a personal attack, it's at least a very rude way of approaching someone.

Anyway, nowhere did I state I made a claim. I simply presented a scenario. And as you may or may not know, a scenario does not require evidence, but requires discussion instead. Which is exactly what I'm trying to do here.
Add to that that I already indicated that I don't claim it'll happen in 2012 (after all, it's just an estimate I made), and that I don't know for sure whether it'd be related to the "predictions", and I think it's easy to conclude I didn't make any claim anywhere that says xx will happen because yy said it.

Literally quoted: "Everything else you may have heard about a doomsday in 2012 is a hoax."
How can you (/other people) claim that nothing will happen? It may be possible to say that with quite a high accuracy on scientifically researchable events (natural disasters, etc.) but it's near impossible to say that about human events like an uprising of people. In my opinion, saying "nothing will happen" is just as bad as saying "this and that natural disaster will happen". A better way to word it would be "there are no indications that anything out of the ordinary will happen, besides these points". You can't ever say "everything else is a hoax", simply because you haven't heard "everything else". I'd bet a lot that you haven't heard every single doomsday theory that has ever been told from one person to another person on this entire globe.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 00:44

How can you (/other people) claim that nothing will happen?

There is zero evidence that whatever is going to happen is related to that one date.
The 2012 claims are self debunking, they contradicting each other in such a way that they cancel each other out.

Oh yes the earth might get hit by something unexpected, but it is completely unrelated to the 2012 hoax.

Last edited on 23 Nov 2010 00:44 by obaeyens Show more

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:54

There is zero evidence that nothing will happen as well. And that's normal, since not everything can be proven with evidence. Try providing evidence that "no protests will happen exactly 2 years after today's date". It's simply not possible. And you don't have to. However, you can't claim (explicit or implicit) that it's 100% sure nothing big will happen on that day.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 01:01

However, you can't claim (explicit or implicit) that it's 100% sure nothing big will happen on that day.

If something happens on that day, it is 100% sure that it is unrelated to any 2012 claims.

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:24

And how can you 'prove' that?

Cameron (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:44

Oddly, you are quoting the site correctly but reading it entirely wrong. However, the site gets crazy new doomsday stories everyday that are debunked by the authors of this site. None of the doomsday theories provide evidence, and if there were an impending doomsday then there shouldn't be several different doomsday theories. The evidence would make it unanimous among scholars, as it would be very clear.

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:56

I personally don't believe any natural disaster will happen in 2012 specifically. Not anything more than what usually happens, that is. But I'm not saying, that nothing will happen where humans themselves are involved. That a lot of stories are crazy and based on nothing, doesn't mean every single story in existance is that crazy.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 00:47

And as you may or may not know, a scenario does not require evidence, but requires discussion instead.

Discussion and debate is worthless in reality.
2012 is a reality based scheme. It either happens or it does not happen, you can't debate it philosophically.

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 00:58

I honestly can't really understand why you think discussion is useless. While it's impossible to prove a humanity-related event will occur or not, it's very possible to try and estimate how likely it is. And I'd rather discuss it with people who don't walk away when hearing "2012" yet do have a different view on things. It would make no sense to either go and conclude things on my own, or only discuss it with people who believe in anything 2012-related anyway.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 01:02

it's very possible to try and estimate how likely it is.

It is equally likely as today, tomorrow, next week, next months, next year, next 100 years….

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:12

That's absolutely not true. The way a society works changes over the years, and with the current unstable condition of society all around the world, it's more likely that something will happen tomorrow than it was 5 years ago.

I see your point, and that's exactly why I think rational discussion is good, instead of the FUD that's being spread by many sites on either side of the spectrum (both some of the doomsayers and some of the debunkers). And promoting things is different from discussing it. If discussing something makes someone commit suicide… then I doubt it's the discussion that did it, and I very much doubt that the person who started the discussion is actually responsive. In my opinion it's better to live in a reality instead of being "sheltered". People/kids living a sheltered life will most likely get the "shock" later on, when they suddenly have to stand on their own feet. Of course the above doesn't apply to the unfounded doomsaying and FUD, just like the unfounded debunking ("that is not humanly possible" etc) that harms people in another way: it restricts people's thinking and makes them extremely narrowminded.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 00:59

Anyway, nowhere did I state I made a claim. I simply presented a scenario. And as you may or may not know, a scenario does not require evidence, but requires discussion instead.

Discussion is good, but the discussion about 2012 is actually doing a lot of harm to young people since they get curious, google 2012 and end up at all sites promoting the end of the world.

Do you realize the responsibility you are taking by promoting the 2012 claims? Your post could be the last straw that broke the camels back, pushing someone over the edge and commit suicide!

TheGreatJuju 23 Nov 2010 02:00

And as you may or may not know, a scenario does not require evidence…

Well, it does if you intend to attach it to reality in any manner whatsoever. If you're just taking flights of fancy as your imagination dictates, there's really nothing to talk about, and you're on the wrong forum. We have very long threads on this board that already cover the same ground you've spewed at us yet again. You're so nebulous as to whatever you're proposing, you can't even commit to an argument and actually go out of your way to make excuses for lacking evidence.

Anyway, nowhere did I state I made a claim.

This…

If I look at happenings around the world, massive protests in "civilized" countries, more and more people opposing the known systems (capitalism, parlementary democracies, etc.), I think 2012 would be a good estimate of an actual turning point; but in humanity, not in the world.

…is a claim.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

Re: Quite one-sided

CaneLaz 23 Nov 2010 00:31

Sven,

I do intend to say this respectfully. You're here on a 2012 website that is dedicated to debunking nonsensical doomsday theories that occur around winter solstice on that year. Most if not all of these theories relate to the Mayan LC Calendar.

What you seem to be referring to appears to be more related to NWO and other governmental theories. It's not entirely appropriate here. However, if you would like I'd be happy to engage you via e-mail. Otherwise, it doesn't appear to be on topic. Let me know if you're interested and we can exchange info.

Thanks,

Jason

Last edited on 23 Nov 2010 00:32 by CaneLaz Show more

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:05

I am aware that this is a debunking website, however this is probably one of the few places where people can be found who actually want to think about it for more than a second, and don't respond with "meh, don't care" or "sure, in 2012 the world goes to hell in some way" without actually trying to understand what someone else is saying.

I think it's related enough to 2012 to be discussed… there might be a possibility that these "predictions" were aimed at something like this. You can't prove that's true, but you can't debunk it either, because it's fairly impossible to actually provide evidence for either side of this point.
It would be 'stupid', however, to dismiss it as being "nonsense", with arguments like "I can't predict the future either, so why would others be able to do it", as many people seem to do. That a mole can't see the world around him, doesn't mean there's nothing to see. It's something you can't ever prove or debunk, you can only approach it statistically.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 01:08

It would be 'stupid', however, to dismiss it as being "nonsense",

Trust me, if you have a bit of math and physics knowledge, all 2012 claims are completely stupid claims.
And a 14 year old can debunk it., the claims are really that bad.

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:13

I wasn't very clear in my previous post (sorry for that), but that "you can't dismiss it as nonsense" bit was aimed at doing predictions in general, not at the claims of natural disasters :)

Re: Quite one-sided

Emperor Palpatine 23 Nov 2010 00:51

As far as human history goes, there have always been riots, uprisings, protests, etc. and they have been for rights and freedoms for the people. Sure, a majority have been violent (Tiannamen Square) and others have been peacefully done (Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, etc.). Even if a riot were to happen, I doubt it would be as bad as Tiannamen Square. We learn from history and sometimes make it's mistakes. But look at the Russian Revolution or the riots against the Vietnam War.

Though, of course "something" will happen in 2012. But there is evidence against it being apocalyptic. Of course it won't be 100% perfect as there probably will be a couple protests and some international issues here and there. But I personally think it's a cycle that goes on from time to time.

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Everything is proceeding as I have forseen. Wait… when did that happen?

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:06

I am not exactly sure what you mean with "apocalyptic" (I'm not even sure of the definition of the term, for example whether it can include events in society), but what I was talking about in my first post, was not just a regular protest like they happen every year, but a certain turning point in the way people think. Those have occurred before, and they probably made humans into what they are now.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 01:10

I was talking about in my first post, was not just a regular protest like they happen every year, but a certain turning point in the way people think.

You mean like flower power?
Or the taliban taking charge in Afganistan?
Or a hindu guru having to wear blue instead of orange?

mike1986 23 Nov 2010 01:14

Apocolypze means Revelation or to Reveal something it's an old Itallian Word i believe.

Re: Quite one-sided

CaneLaz 23 Nov 2010 01:10

I think if you're going to bring this sort of argument(not fighting argument, but idea), then you need to get into more specifics. Which governments will most likely collapse first and why? What are some immediate consequences and how is it directly related to 2012?

I'm not expecting you to read the future from your palm, but you at least need to expand your argument.

My offer still stands on the e-mail. I think it would indeed be more appropriate than to take up bandwidth here.

Thanks in advance,

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:23

If I were wanting to have a discussion with a single person, I would've grabbed an e-mail address somewhere off this site or another site. My aim however was to make multiple other people take other arguments into consideration, and at the same time provide feedback on my arguments so I can take their arguments into consideration.
My job is actually to design, program, and maintain websites and the servers they run on, and I know for a fact that the amount of space and bandwidth this thread takes up is close to zero. Text is small :)

I expect the next massive protests to happen in countries like the UK and the Netherlands, as surveillance, government privacy violation, budget cuts for cultural and social initiatives (including education), and general repression of the public have increased massively in a very short timeframe. I especially think Europe will be the first area where problems will start to occur (as far as they haven't occurred yet, like in Greece where protests and resistance groups are still very much alive, despite the minimal media coverage), and the USA would be in my list of "probably problem countries" as well, due to the massive debt.

2012 is just a year that, looking at how protests and resistance from the public are increasing, would be about the time everything "explodes", in my estimation. There's just a possibility that there's a loose link between the "predictions" of 2012/doomsday and this "explosion". I'm not saying "oh I'm sure that'll happen!", they're just estimates.

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 01:42

The population of the UK and The Netherlands is very small compared to the 7.000.000.000 people on this planet.
The Chinese And India people would probably say was that all there was? A small uprise of only a few millions of people in a far away countrie?

Re: Quite one-sided

CaneLaz 23 Nov 2010 01:29

Fair enough Sven,

You reference the UK with surveillance. I can agree with much of what I've read about street cameras being installed in London and such. It does appear to be invasive. However, I don't remotely see anything going on that would indicate a collapse or massive rioting on the level of Paris a few years ago.

The repression of the public has always been around. As new freedoms are had, some legislator somewhere is unhappy about it. In the US, I'm certainly not fearful of repression. I work with government, law enforcement to be more exact. Local, state, and Federal government just isn't capable enough to survey and monitor the public on a whole that some people such as Alex Jones would like you to think. It's just not a viable option economically. Second, contrary to what the conspiracy theorist tell you, most in that field have ethics and would do no such thing.

Public frustration rarely leads to revolt, but often leads to policy change.

BTW, for someone that doesn't speak English as a first language, you navigate it very well.

Last edited on 23 Nov 2010 01:31 by CaneLaz Show more

Re: Quite one-sided

obaeyens 23 Nov 2010 01:48

My previous job and current job has also something to do with video surveillance. And I can tell you that privacy concerns are taken very seriously. I have not seen any conspiracy sign ever. It is just impossible to store all data and it is impossible to monitor and follow a complete a complete society.

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:55

I am not solely talking about street camera's. A good example would be the inability to actually voice your opinion in the UK in public. For some examples, you could watch videos from Charlie Veitch (www.youtube.com/cveitch) who is, for a change, not a random conspiracy theorist shouting a lot of non-sense, but actually tries to rationally approach subjects in a fairly funny way. An example that can't be proved very easily, yet is more clear, is what a few friends in the UK told me: they actually know someone who was inspired by the Charlie Veitch videos, and decided to do it himself to see what would happen. Most likely because of the absence of a camera, he has been in way more trouble than Charlie Veitch. He has been arrested and held many times, while the way he voiced his opinion was identical to how Charlie Veitch did it, which was completely compliant with the UK law. I've heard more stories, but I can't verify those are actually real, so I won't list those here.
In the Netherlands, however, I can clearly see myself how extreme the repression is around here (I live there myself). In fact, did you know the amount of telephone taps in the Netherlands in a DAY, is over 1600, while the total amount of telephone taps in the US in a YEAR is just a bit over 2200? (These statistics are taken from a 2007 research, recent statistics show even more dramatic numbers, but not all details have been published on this yet so it can't be used as a reliable source.) In fact, not only are 2 fingerprints stored on our passport/ID card (which would be understandable for verification), but 4 fingerprints are actually stored in a central database, managed by Sagem in France. Don't agree? That's your own problem, because you can't get an ID card or passport (or even renew it) without giving fingerprints (there are ways to circumvent it, but not many people know about those). And you are required to have your ID card or passport with you at ALL times, of course. Don't have an ID card with you, even when walking your dog? That means you'll get a fine. Let's assume you are just walking your dog, and suddenly you are asked for your ID by a random police officer, walking by. You don't want to show it, because there's not really a reason to show it. You're asked for your name, but you think "hey, why should I give my name?" because there's nothing you're doing, except for walking your dog. You can actually be arrested, and held. Complaining about being arrested for nothing? You can be charged with resistance against an arrest, which is a criminal offense. And if you don't watch your words, it's "insult of an office on duty" added to that.
And that was just a random example. It's insane how much surveillance there is here. Storing more fingerprints than required by the EU, even storing it in a central searchable database (which is not required by the EU at all and not done by any other European country!). Data from internet and other telecommunication providers has to be logged and stored for way longer period of time than in any other European country.
Etc., etc., etc.
I've been speaking to many people lately, especially to people outside activist movements (which I'm in with half a leg) and most people give the same response: they are getting more and more upset with how the (Dutch) government acts, and they're seriously ready to 'fight' against it. And these people are random people I meet on the street, that are in no way related to any activist movements. The same goes for a lot of random people I meet through the internet, who live in other countries (especially UK and US), although the probability of what they say being true is a bit lower.

And regarding English… I've learned it through the years, simply from experience. English classes in school barely taught me anything, the internet was faster :). The only annoying effect of that is that I often confuse British English and American English.

Sven (guest) 23 Nov 2010 01:57

And yet again I forget to add something to my post and realize I can't edit posts, being a Guest and all: I'm going to sleep now… it's fairly late here (about 03:00) and I'm getting tired. I'll be back here tomorrow :)

Astrogeek 23 Nov 2010 02:04

Sven;

You are welcome to post here as long as it is 'on topic' for this website. This thread is not 'on topic'.

This website is specific to the idea of a doomsday, i.e., "end of the world" in 2012. Your scenario does not fit within the subject matter of this website, and you have not provided any firm link between your scenario and 2012.

I'm locking this thread, and moving it to 'off topic'.

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"Do you ever think about things you do think about?" - Henry Drummond to Matthew Harrison Brady in Inherit the Wind

TheGreatJuju 23 Nov 2010 02:36

Sven, I regret to inform you that such experiences with law enforcement, and such draconian measures allotted to modern law enforcement agencies by ruling classes, are not restricted to the Netherlands. Technology allows governments to be more aggressive and invasive than ever, but fundamentally we have the same "tree of liberty" scenario that Thomas Jefferson wrote about over two hundred years ago. People will grow lethargic and complacent, and states will expand their respective reaches proportionally to whatever extents they can manage, until a breaking point is reached for a critical mass of agents within a given society.

This "tree if liberty" can then be watered in metaphorical blood or actual blood. Throughout history, we've seen both outcomes. What I can say based on an understanding of history, however, is that any given year is going to have its own share of riots, wars, economic shake-ups, financial melt-downs, natural disasters and miscellaneous upheaval. Some have been and will be worse than others. This is part of the human condition, and these things per se are sadly not unusual. Further, to note this aspect of reality is neither novel nor interesting nor surprising.

Also, making a claim like, "…2012 would be a good estimate of an actual turning point…" is a transparent attempt to shoe-horn your pet issues and fantasizing onto this forum, under color of relevance. If you're truly so interested in these subjects, feel free to read the hundreds of posts already made in other threads regarding everything from the "New World Order," to totalitarianism, to economic collapse, to Peak Oil and more. There's little we haven't seen here that isn't already a dead horse. With all due respect, if the best you can do is speculate wildly and make excuses for why none of your claims are supported by evidence, you're wasting your time and ours.

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com