A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

2012hoax 25 Oct 2011 21:29

The link contains an extended quote from Sagan's "A Demon Haunted World"¹. It is a good analogy on how to deal with claims… not just claims of paranormal activity, but any time anybody forwards a claim that they want you to believe.

The short version is simply "Show me. Prove your claim". If the claim is true, and if the person is being honest with themselves and with you, they won't have a problem in at least trying to meet the burden of proof. If, on the other hand, they shy away, or make various excuses, then there is cause to think that they are not being completely honest with you.

http://www.fireandknowledge.org/archives/2008/04/06/a-fire-breathing-dragon-lives-in-my-garage-sagan/

Footnotes

1. In my opinion, this book should be required reading in order to graduate from High School.

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

Gary A 25 Oct 2011 23:09

I've ordered a copy of "A demon haunted world" and I'm hoping to have it in a day or two. Can't wait to get into it, sounds great.

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The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

2012hoax 25 Oct 2011 23:23

Excellent.

Let me give you a little bit from the first chapter, just to whet your appetite:

Science arouses a soaring sense of wonder. But so does pseudoscience. Sparse and poor popularizations of science abandon ecological niches that pseudoscience promptly fills. If it were widely understood that claims to knowledge require adequate evidence before they can be accepted, there would be no room for pseudoscience.

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

Gary A 25 Oct 2011 23:40

Thanks for that. I'll give a little report on it when I'm done reading it, it certainly looks like something I'd enjoy.

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The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

ThreeFangCat 26 Oct 2011 03:42

Also a great illustration of the logical fallacy, special pleading.

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

Wolf Bird 26 Oct 2011 06:27

I could not agree more that it should be required reading…I also think along with two of Michael Shermer's books, The Believing Brain and Why People believe weird things. Love Demon Haunted World, read it this past summer (along with the aforementioned Shermer books).

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Last edited on 26 Oct 2011 06:27 by Wolf Bird Show more

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

JamesJJlm 26 Oct 2011 13:27

The short version is simply "Show me. Prove your claim". If the claim is true, and if the person is being honest with themselves and with you, they won't have a problem in at least trying to meet the burden of proof. If, on the other hand, they shy away, or make various excuses, then there is cause to think that they are not being completely honest with you.

This makes me curious enough to ask for clarification. It seems to apply well enough to most doomsday advocates, but then there is someone like Geryl who AFAIK hasn't tried to shift burden of proof. He does seem to at least try to meet the burden of proof, even though his evidence needs evidence most of the time. So when was it, for someone like him, that my B.S. detector should have gone off when I first heard his claims (assuming I had no knowledge in science, but just in critical thinking)?

For the record: I am in no way advocating Geryl's claims, I am just trying to figure out exactly what makes a man with such ridiculous claims be so convincing to readers. Why is he the most debunked person on this site, yet at the same time, the hardest fear to shake from people?

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

3WMElliott 26 Oct 2011 13:58

So when was it, for someone like him, that my B.S. detector should have gone off when I first heard his claims (assuming I had no knowledge in science, but just in critical thinking)?

Head to the next step in your BS detector arsenal.

We don't always know when someone is spouting nonsense, and it would be wrong to dismiss anything before going through it. Sometimes you need to go through it a matter of words before finding a fault, other times you need to do some proper research. In this case, if you've got someone willing to prove their claim then you're into the realm of the scientific method, one of the sturdiest BS detectors in the world.

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

rand45 25 Oct 2011 23:49

Im gonna see if I can find this at Border….. oh wait never mind to Barnes And Nobles we go

Re: A Fire Breathing Dragon in my Garage...

TheGreatJuju 26 Oct 2011 07:48

If I could recommend one and only one book to everyone bothered by woo claims and doomsayers, ADHW would be it.

Of course, I'm sure there are woo artists and doomsayers who will claim that Sagan was part of the NWO. Of course he would encourage everyone to not believe The Truth™!

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"They tell you, but do you believe it? If so, why?"

http://www.undeadrufus.com

Jesse Darby (guest) 27 Oct 2011 02:18

huh i'm thinking i should order a copy of this book…so it's about the whole response to counter/sending arguements? saying as its only to show proof and then have the belief in your claim to back it up further? interesting i will have to look it up thanks for the post