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Have you guys ever thought that all the people on YouTube who make doomsday vids are just generally scared and are trying to warn people since they believe in stuff like 2012,Nibiru,etc and never bothered to refute it or look for some logical explanations. Like I said I kinda feel bad for the doomsayers since they'll get laughed at and are just scared themselves.
Some of them might be gullible pawns who unwittingly spread nonsense. However, I'm convinced that most of the prominent Internet woo artists are fully aware of what they're doing.
Nope, they're either liars or idiots, I laugh at their crap now and I'll laugh even harder when their crap fails.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
Hi rand45, I certainly do have sympathy for them. I think the vast majority of them genuinely believe the myths they hear, and are truly trying to warn, or "wake up" the rest of us. They are that way because they've been let down by their country's education system, and generally neglected in the great dog-eat-dog thing we call modern society. They have no idea how to think critically, they're surrounded by doom and gloom of a more realistic nature - the economy, global warming - and they're lied to in films that purport to be documentaries when they to try to learn anything from the TV.
Political conspiracy theories are easy to believe when we've a background of actual secrecy and lies that have come to light years or decades after the event, and when people are really waking up to the extent of the global corruption that has led to the economic and ecological crises - and to the way the rich just keep on, business as usual, while the little people pay for the mess.
Besides, delusion is very easy to get into. Confirmation bias is powerful even for the trained scientist, which is why we need peer review and other aspects of the scientific method. The natural cognitive process of the human mind is myth-making and reinforcing. It takes method to break the habit.
What we see now, in addition, is mass hysteria. A cat playing a piano can go viral. Doomsday and other conspiracy theories are going viral, and the elements of different ones are mashed up all over the place. The more there is out there, the more persuasive/confusing/frightening it is to the individual.
I think they often seem more beligerent - deliberately obtuse or lying - because when they're challenged they naturally defend their publicly-expressed opinions, and often because they interpret those challenges as propaganda.
The trick to getting the most out of your bunker is to keep it for several doomsdays.
I think the vast majority of them genuinely believe the myths they hear,
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. I'd say the true believers are a very very small minority, the vast majority are fear mongering money hungry morons.
They are that way because they've been let down by their country's education system,
Which country would that be? Doomsayers come from every country in the world, and I'm willing to bet that skeptics and doomsayers come from the same education system more often than not.
they're surrounded by doom and gloom of a more realistic nature - the economy, global warming - and they're lied to in films that purport to be documentaries when they to try to learn anything from the TV.
That applies to absolutely everyone, but not everyone becomes a hysteria merchant do they?
Political conspiracy theories are easy to believe when we've a background of actual secrecy and lies that have come to light years or decades after the event,
Sure, but the conspiracies these people believe are simply insane. Most of these people claim the government is hiding the EOTW, that is beyond silly. Governments lie, sure they do, but the lies these people claim the government are spreading are just impossible.
I agree with most of your post, but I cannot and will not ever have sympathy for these people. They may be gullible, but as someone who was actually taken in by these morons at one point, I have to say it was not at all difficult to educate myself in order to dismiss this crap. I'm not a genius, I was raised in a rough area with a bad education system, yet even I could learn the difference between truth and nonsense. Hell, we've saw examples of kids as young as 12 coming here afraid and leaving as skeptics who dismiss this stuff as nonsense. Grown men and women have no excuse to behave in this way, none at all. As I said above, I laugh at their crap now and I'll laugh even harder when they're shown to be the ignorant lunatics they really are.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
Those scared kids are typically in the comments sections. Or in the very bad quality clips.
Most of them that create clips and actively promote it are not just little scared kids.
These are full blow scam artists, especially the religious ones with their rapture claims are in no way just innocent kids.
Even if a scared kid makes a comment or a clip, he has to realize that it hurts people!
I think we might just be assessing the material differently. I guess we're both talking mainly about youtube. I see an awful lot of videos that seem to be done by scared people with poor thinking skills, who have been frightened and now are pointing their mobile phone cams at the sun going "Look, what more proof do you need, it's not setting in the West, but the North West!". I see a lot more of that type than deliberately scamming ones. Most of them, I don't see how they're meant to be scamming - they're not selling books or lectures. They're just freaking out cuz the sky's falling. The religious ones are mostly just misguided and trying to preach. Now everybody can be a preacher on the net.
Even if a scared kid makes a comment or a clip, he has to realize that it hurts people!
But if they're scared, and they're immature, we can't expect them to realise that. But often it's gone a stage further - they've been frightened, then they're convinced and come to terms with whatever BS they've taken on board. Now it's vitally important they enlighten others! Together we might have a chance of stopping whatever it is. That's how most of them come over to me anyway, and their inability to think clearly is evident when I try to talk to them. If it's a deliberate scam, they're bloody good at it, and yet I still don't see what they have to gain from it apart from some views.
The trick to getting the most out of your bunker is to keep it for several doomsdays.
But if they're scared, and they're immature, we can't expect them to realise that.
Most of them are not kids but adults.
That's how most of them come over to me anyway, and their inability to think clearly is evident when I try to talk to them.
Only those that are in a one time discussion. These people will change their minds when you talk about it. But a big part is pretending to be a scared person.
It is not only making money, people also do it to get attention and friends by pretending that they know secret things.
Other do it to attract more believers for their religion by yelling repent and rapture… These people are basically the immoral terrorists using religious scare tactics.
You said
Most of them are not kids but adults.
in response to my
But if they're scared, and they're immature, we can't expect them to realise that.
which was in response to your
Even if a scared kid makes a comment or a clip, he has to realize that it hurts people!
Did you forget, or are you deliberately going round in circles? ;)
You and Gary A are right, there are those motives of attention-seeking, self-aggrandisement and trolling, thanks for pointing them out.
I don't mean to sound holier than thou about it, but one difference may be that I'm generally rather empathic and forgiving, even of people whom most would condemn outright. If people are being abusive, they generally do it because they're not able to stop being like that. I don't mean I condone their behaviour, but I see it as coming from their damaged nature. And there but for the grace of circumstances go I.
The trick to getting the most out of your bunker is to keep it for several doomsdays.
Did you forget, or are you deliberately going round in circles? ;)
I just wanted to point pout that some conspiracy theorists sounds like little kids but when you check them out, then they turn out to be full blown adults.
If it is a young kid then yes I feel sorry for that kid, but that does not mean that he should have a free pass.
I see an awful lot of videos that seem to be done by scared people with poor thinking skills, who have been frightened and now are pointing their mobile phone cams at the sun going "Look, what more proof do you need, it's not setting in the West, but the North West!".
Yes, but when confronted on YouTube comments, these people will delete comments that disagree with them. That's not the actions of someone who's scared, that's the actions of a liar. Very few are open to criticism, they just claim they're right and delete and/or ignore anyone who disagrees.
Most of them, I don't see how they're meant to be scamming - they're not selling books or lectures.
They don't have to be making money, as obaeyens says above, a lot of them want attention or notoriety. Most of them are repeat offenders also, for instance, a few of them made videos predicting comet Elenin would bring disaster. This clearly never happened, but do they change? No, they delete their previous videos and move on to the next hand waving crap they manage to lay their grubby little mitts on.
But if they're scared, and they're immature, we can't expect them to realise that.
Why not? As I stated above, we've had kids as young as 12 coming to this forum petrified and leaving as skeptics who know it's all crap. The correct info isn't actually that hard to find, and if some kid scoures the net spreading crap simply because he can't be bothered reading actual facts, then that's not our problem.
If it's a deliberate scam, they're bloody good at it, and yet I still don't see what they have to gain from it apart from some views.
Attention, notoriety, a feeling of satisfaction that people look up to them. Nope, sorry, I have zero sympathy for any of them, they are either knowingly lying or spreading alarm without educating themselves on all the facts. They deserve to be mocked, they deserve to be criticised.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
Why not [expect them to realise that they hurt people]? As I stated above, we've had kids as young as 12 coming to this forum petrified and leaving as skeptics who know it's all crap.
But you seem to be implying that because one person can learn, everybody should.
The trick to getting the most out of your bunker is to keep it for several doomsdays.
But you seem to be implying that because one person can learn, everybody should.
And you seem to be implying that these people can learn enough fiction as to make videos and write blogs about it, yet they're so ignorant that they don't realise that telling people they're going to die might scare them. These videos are hardly flowers and sunshine, they're usually accompanied by creepy music and alarming claims. The "holy crap, it's Nibiru!!!" videos are usually deliberately doctored or are simple lens flares, in both cases the claimant will know this. If they're pointing a camera phone and thinking the sun is rising in the wrong place, then they might want to check it out rather than throwing it on YouTube with a name like "2012 nibiru moving sun" or some other crap. I do agree that some do genuinly believe in this stuff, but my personal opinion is that I have no sympathy for them if they use that belief to spread alarm without trying to find a flip side to the argument.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
I agree, there is no way that you can careful craft conspiracy clips and not know that it must be fake.
Also in no way you can keep on promoting any 2012 claims where it gets debunked in your own threads by people who know the stuff or when every single prediction you claimed failed miserably (E.g. Elenin)
The typical innocent kids videos are those that are very amateurish.
Or when they have this typical one-liner "NASA lies"
Some people, especially the religious ones, have invested so much into believing some claims that the end is near (e.g. rapture) and that they will be rewarded by going to heaven, that they cannot afford reality that they have wasted their live, energy and money. These people will keep on promoting the end of the world to compensate for the lack that nothing happens. These people have a very interesting behaviour when you talk to them and they are about to realize that it is all fake. Their brain resets and starts with the very first claim again like a broken record like no evidence got presented.
And you seem to be implying that these people can learn enough fiction as to make videos and write blogs about it, yet they're so ignorant that they don't realise that telling people they're going to die might scare them.
As a former fundy (during my childhood and youth, primarily), I can attest to the fact that sometimes people convince themselves that they're right and the establishment is wrong no matter what, and it can be a long climb out of that mode. That's ultimately no excuse, of course, and you make a good point about individuals being astute enough to create woo videos but unwilling to study real science. Much of it is self-inflicted. Ergo, my sympathy for such folks has a limit.
My comment above is a [somewhat unclear] delineation between the run-of-the-mill Internet hand-wringer and the professional woo artist. In reality, there are so many sub-categories one could create for these characters, it's not worth the effort. VonHelton, for example, is a proven Pseudoscience Regurgitation Specialist who has scared a lot of people with his YT channel. Does he really believe the crap he spews? Probably. Do I care? No, and I can't see why it even matters. Ditto with our old friend jcattera, who probably doesn't believe the things he has said, as he's been shown repeatedly to be a liar. What about Kyle/Greg? I sincerely think he was a messed up kid, and I still feel bad for him, but he showed us repeatedly that he had no interest in honest discussion.
As I've said before, I can't respond to someone's motivations or circumstances, so I just respond to claims. When responding, I think I usually give a fair chance for a given proponent to come around. If they refuse to, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, as more often than not I'm posting for the benefit of third parties anyway.
So, yeah. Tl;dr — I suppose I'm on the "limited sympathy" side in some cases, but ultimately it's not a major factor in how I view this crackpottery phenomenon.
I hold my hands up, I'm very very bitter toward these people, probably due to the fact that they scared me for a brief period. I'm angry with them, but I'm actually more angry at myself for being so ill informed that I actually swallowed this crap. I respect others opinions on this, but I'm probably just so bitter that I just can't bring myself to say I have sympathy for any of them. This is a personal opinion of course, and I certainly don't expect everyone to think the same way I do.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
I'm going to open up here, just a bit.
One of the reasons why I helped to start this site is because of how I feel about this hoax, and about the people perpetrating this hoax.
I first heard about this from kids who came up to me after one of my school presentations. They were obviously scared. Their patent fear has colored my reaction to these people ever since. I harbor a smoldering, pent-up rage for these people. Every time I talk to one, every time one of their emails shows up in my inbox, I feel a surge of resentment and rage. These are the people who like to scare kids for a buck.
No, they don't want to meet me in person. They really, really don't.
I first heard about this from kids who came up to me after one of my school presentations.
I'm pretty fortunate in that the only kid I saw afraid of 2012 was actually my own daughter, but she had heard about the movie from school friends and then managed to watch the trailer online. I can't really blame the doomies for that, but yeah, no doubt if they'd have got a hold of her they'd have had no qualms about scaring her to death. I can't blame you for feeling this way for that reason, that must have been pretty disturbing seeing kids afraid of something like this.
No, they don't want to meet me in person. They really, really don't.
You've no idea how much money I would pay for 5 minutes in a room with Patrick Geryl and "Dr" Jaysen Q Rand or whatever the hell his name is.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
I think I'm moving a bit towards the unsympathetic end of things, thanks to your good points here and a comment I came across on yt where some kid (probably) was celebrating the fact that he faked a video (I think it was on heavenly trumpets but who cares) and was pleased to have conned quite a few suckers, teehee. I've noticed before, but forgot again, that I underestimate people's enjoyment of playing practical jokes, as I have very little interest in playing them myself, and nobody in my upbringing would have thought of doing such a thing. Even so, I can apply my thoughts about their innocence - they may not realise that it holds any danger for others, and may have been brought up constantly playing tricks and defending themselves from them.
I hold my hands up, I'm very very bitter toward these people, probably due to the fact that they scared me for a brief period.
Oh, I'm bitter too. Don't get me wrong. I'm one of the snidest, most sarcastic commenters on yt there is! I distinguish between having sympathy, which to me means understanding someone's motives, seeing how their actions make a kind of sense from that perspective, and condoning or accepting their behaviour. Having sympathy also conveys the idea of pitying, and I can pity someone for their ignorant beliefs or reluctance to learn a new way of thinking, and yet be infuriated, critical and harsh.
I'm angry with them, but I'm actually more angry at myself for being so ill informed that I actually swallowed this crap.
Yes, and sometimes (I'm not saying always), we are angry at other people to sublimate our anger at ourselves. If we stop for a moment and try to empathise, we sometimes recognise that they are very like we were, and it's like we're angry at a previous version of ourselves. If this happens enough, it starts to be replaced with pity and forgiveness, simply because it's untenable and illogical to be angry at a younger, stupider more deluded version of ourselves.
I also think we - having become sceptical - often conveniently forget or underestimate just how difficult it is in reality to distinguish truth from myth or, more seriously, lies. Being truly sceptical, open minded, means trying different ideas on for size, testing them out, and once we've tried seeing the world as being manipulated by some secret elite, or, however counterintuitively, having invisible realms the dead go to, etc., they do develop an internal logic, which the outsider ignorantly fails to appreciate.
Here's an example I saw on yt yesterday: a well-known anti-theist was arguing (he probably would call it that anyway) as a general disproof of god, that god's command to Abraham to kill his son is horrific - how could a loving god require infanticide? I'm atheist, but he's an idiot. The internal logic of Christianity sees death of the innocent as their passage to divine love forever, and hence Abraham is being tested to see if he trusts that counterintuitive reality enough to do something personally dreadful. However we might denounce that belief system as making human life expendable, the fact that the maker of the video didn't share the internal logic made his criticism of it futile and childish - potentially even reinforcing Christian belief in viewers who recognised that.
And there's so much like that in 2012 mythology and other conspiracy theories. Sending someone off to read a debunk is easily perceived within their worldview as motivated by being "one of them" (either deliberately part of the conspiracy or a victim of the global propaganda).
It's easier to see on issues that you're not so sure of, take your pick (unless you're unfortunate enough to be sure of everything). A while ago, I had a very hard time trying to decide whether global warming was really a big problem. I think it really is, but I'm not sure.
And before that I spent most of my life believing there was a "veil" of maya, behind which the real, spiritual world shone divinely. And when I meditated, I found it. And when people explained empiricism to me, they just didn't get it. Of course you can detect it - just meditate! Open your third eye! See, I better stop, or I'm going to relapse. :)
The trick to getting the most out of your bunker is to keep it for several doomsdays.
You raise some fantastic points, and I always enjoy getting the opinions of others, provided it's done without an "I know all and you're an idiot" approach. I'm young(ish) and debunking or arguing against those that I deem to be spreading unnecessary alarm is a pretty new concept to me. I try and learn from people who I consider more experienced in this area than I am, and I can honestly say that you have taught me a good lesson here. I very much enjoyed reading your posts on this matter and it's always nice to see someone arriving here with a bit more of a level head than myself. Who knows, maybe I can be slightly more empathetic the next time a troll turns up here looking for a fight. I'm not promising anything but I can try. :-)
Thank you very much for your input and a belated welcome to the site.
The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.
Thanks, I'm really chuffed you enjoyed my thoughts and said those appreciative things, Gary, it's made my day, and it's nice to meet you too! I learn a lot from people on forums like this, and probably don't say so enough when it happens. It's great when there's some give and take, like I just noticed your comment:
They deserve to be mocked, they deserve to be criticised.
It's helpful for me to think about that and find that I agree, and yet I believe it's compatible with feeling sorry for the little gits at the same time!
But of what you've written so far my favourite is:
The "holy crap, it's Nibiru!!!" videos…
Don't know why, just cracks me up every time. Might have to steal it.
The trick to getting the most out of your bunker is to keep it for several doomsdays.
