Nancy Lieder
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Nancy Lieder is not a scientist, has no scientific training, and churns out megabytes of useless and nonsensical chatter instead of useful information.

Nancy Lieder
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Nancy Lieder

This website is not a medical site, and does not offer diagnosis or treatment of mental illnesses. However, we recommend you check out this site, and keep it in mind as you read the rest of this page.

Nancy Lieder is the owner of the ZetaTalk website. She claims that she is in telepathic communication with gray aliens from the Zeta Reticuli system (which she calls 'Zetas'). Zeta Reticuli is a wide binary star, there is no confirmed evidence of planets there yet. It is a popular target for claims of UFO origins[1]. She claims to have become aware of her contactee status in 1993[2], and that she was selected as "a communicator of the Zeta message" and "… allowed her brain to be implanted with Zetan genetic material" several times, so that she is now able to communicate telepathically with the Zetas[3].

By her own admission Lieder does not know which end of a telescope to look through[4]. She depends entirely on what the Zetas tell her during their telepathic sessions. The Zetas tell Nancy all kinds of things. Most of them wrong. Apparently in one of their communications, Zetas told Nancy to move to Wisconsin by unwrapping a StarBurst candy[5].

The goal of the Zetas is apparently to warn us of the impending doom caused by Planet X. They apparently intend to accomplish this through their "Emissary", Nancy Lieder. They also apparently use crop circles, and other 'subtle message' techniques, because apparently we're too stupid to get it if they just, for example, landed at the U.N. and told everybody[6]. Now, perhaps that works for Nancy and her StarBurst candies, but I think I'd prefer the direct approach.

Nancy is never wrong

Nancy Lieder claims to have a stranglehold on the truth, and that "if any human theory differs, it is wrong"[7], and has a page dedicated to the accuracy of the Zeta predictions[8]. Of course, her fallback position is that she obtains special knowledge from her communications with the Zetas. Unfortunately for Nancy, the Zetas apparently tell her a lot of things that are just plain wrong, or that were claims made long before the Zetas ever came along.

Examples of Errors

  1. Nancy and the Zetas claim that Stonehenge is older than the 12th planet, and that it survived prior cataclysms because it was placed in solid rock[9]. Unfortunately, the modern view of Stonehenge is a reconstruction. Reconstructions were performed at the Stonehenge site several times between 1901 and 1958, and many of the stones are now set in concrete[10][11].
  2. They claimed that the comet of the century, Hale-Bopp, didn't exist[12][13]. Unfortunately Nancy missed this extraordinary event, deliberately, since she refused to go outside and look at it[14]. Later she (or they) admitted it was a lie[15]. The purpose of this deception was to somehow lay a 'trip point' to disrupt "the establishment".
  3. Lieder makes basic errors in terminology, and is then unable to address simple questions about simple astronomy concepts[16]

In a nutshell (pun intended) the Hale-Bopp conversation on Sci.Astro went something like this:

NL (1995): Hale-Bopp is a hoax.
SA (1995): No, it's a comet. We can see it.
NL (1995): No, you can't, you're part of the hoax. It's an exploding star.
SA (1997): We have two years of tracking data. It's a comet.
NL (1997): No, NASA is slipping in tracking data to deceive you and align with a real comet.
SA (1997): Yes, it's a real comet!
NL (2002): You only think I was wrong, but really I was lying to you, so the Zetas were right again!
SA (2002): ???

How this benefited anyone is an open question, as is how anyone can believe anything from Lieder anymore.

Examples of claims that were taken from or predated by other sources

  1. The Zetas themselves: The abduction reports of Barney and Betty Hill (1961)[17] and the appearance of the 'Grays' from Whitley Strieber's Communion (1987) [18]
  2. Pole Shifts: Immanuel Velikovsky: Worlds in Collision (1950), Ages in Chaos (1952), Earth In Upheaval (1956), Oedipus and Akhnaton (1960), Peoples of the Sea (1977), Ramses II and His Times (1978), Mankind in Amnesia (1982), Stargazers and Gravediggers (1983). Edgar Cayce (1930). Len Kasten Pole Shift Revisited (1980).
  3. 12th Planet/Planet X: Zecharia Sitchin The 12th Planet (1976)
  4. The Planet X Scenario: The cartoon "Thundar the Barbarian" (1980)[19] (possibly influenced by Sitchin)
  5. STO/STS: Service to Others, (good) and Service to Self, (bad) These concepts are common. They are called 'egoism' (the self) and 'altruism', (the self serving the other). These are contained in social theories stemming as far back in time as the ancient Greeks and are contained in the teachings of various religions and belief systems as diverse as Paganism, Yoga, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, humanism, etc., etc. Nothing new here.

It appears that Nancy and the Zetas are taking credit for co-opting pre-existing ideas.

Those Erroneous Aliens

The Zetas, for a space-faring race, have an abysmally poor grasp of basic astronomy. Their descriptions of the movements of "Planet X" contradict known facts about planetary motions. For example, they describe it moving from 40AU to 1AU in less than 5 years[20], ignoring Kepler's laws. When questioned on this point, their reply is to question everything we know about planetary motions. Apparently Lieder and the Zetas find that magnetism is a much bigger factor than gravity. Planets are described as having 'wakes', as 'stopping' suddenly due to 'particle flows', and as performing impossible orbital gymnastics. Their explanations of why we can't see Planet X are equally laughable[21]. But, the real eye-opener are the Zeta's claims about the 'Pole Shift'[22]. We challenge you to read that page, and discern a coherent message.

Failed Predictions

Brian Gilbanks has documented several failed predictions[23]:

  • Cataclysms
  • The 12th Planet would be sighted by late 2002.
  • Domino earthquakes
  • Comet Hale-Bopp would not draw nearer.
  • Crop Failure
  • Market Crash
  • Financial Freeze with barter systems taking the place of paper money
  • Border Closings between states.

Aliens she's met

  • Zetas [24]
    • Short Skinny Zeta: 4ft tall, slender 'post like' body, straight limbs, archetypal 'Gray' face.
    • Tall Skinny Zeta: Similar form to the 'Short Skinny' but about 6ft tall.
    • PumpkinHead Zeta: Taller than the other types, larger rounded head as opposed to 'teardrop' shape, smaller rounder eyes.
    • Water Zeta: Similar to other types, with fins on the outside edges of hips and thighs, head described as 'aqua-dynamic' but also as 'basically lumpy', eyes on short protuberances
  • Other types [25]
    • Greek God: Described as humanoid, but "… made Arnold Schwartzeneger look like a 97 pound weakling"
    • Chicken Man: Described as looking "… just like a flesh-colored chicken without feathers."
    • Tiny Man: "…stood about a foot tall, and was flesh colored with a rounded head and short limbs."
    • Horned Toad Man: Described as being about 4 feet tall, wearing clothing, with skin covered large flexible plates similar to turtle shell.
    • Broom Stick Man: Described as "the very tall and skinny alien from Close Encounters"
    • Little Green Man: Less than 4 feet tall, skinny, green with a round head.
    • Slinky Man: Short, with stretchy neck, arms, and legs, "like slinkys"
    • Swamp Creature: A green version of the Creature from the Black Lagoon
    • Octopus Man: A body and tentacles like an octopus.
    • Bean Bag Man: A green blob with 2 eyes and a mouth in a round head, body surrounded by about 50 small claws.
    • Cockroach Man: A large, gray, bipedal cockroach.
    • Amoebae Man: A light green semi-liquid being with "no form or distinction".
    • Vampire Man: 4 feet tall, stubby arms and legs, with two large tusks coming down from the face.
    • Dino Man: A small T. Rex, no taller than a large man.


In 1995, Nancy Lieder began posting on Usenet, including the groups sci.astro and alt.alien.visitors. In September of 1995 she posted a lengthy rant that Comet Hale-Bopp didn't really exist, but rather that it was "… a fraud, perpetrated by those who would have the teeming masses quiescent until it is too late." and warning about "the 12th planet"[26]. Nancy continued to post to sci.astro and sci.astro.amateur, posting her 'ZetaTalk' missives and not directly addressing questions or rebuttals.

Eventually, this drew some from those groups into her own 'Troubled-Times' discussion groups, with predictable consequences[32].


Nancy's current site is the "Poleshift Ning" (See "ZetaTalk Exposed" below). Some of the 'rules and regulations' of the site are fascinating:

Because of the threat of disruptors and debunkers, and to keep this a space safe for all good-hearted people, the following rules need to be observed:
1. No debunking and disruption. Debunking and disruption will lead to a ban. If you do intend to embrace any main establishment lies you will be suspended without any explanation. REASON paid debunking teams can completely disrupt discussion, as has occurred elsewhere.
2. No debating the reality of Planet X and the validity of ZetaTalk. REASON paid debunking and desire to 'say it ain't so' make valid discussion impossible, else.

In early 2003, Nancy Lieder gave the following radio interview to KROQ FM in Los Angeles, in which she urged people to drown their pets, to save them from the horrors of the pole shift she claimed would be caused by Planet X later that year:

The above interview was discussed in a thread started in November 2003 at the Bad Astronomy forum (now known as "Cosmoquest") here:

Radio Debate with Phil Plait in 2003

Also in early 2003, Nancy took part in a debate with the "Bad Astronomer" Phil Plait, webmaster of on the "Coast to Coast" radio show, hosted by George Noory. This debate was arranged because Nancy claimed at the time that Planet X would cause mayhem on Earth with a pole shift a few weeks later.

Although no recording of this debate still exists anywhere online, it was transcribed at the time by Jigsaw, a BAUT (now known as "Cosmoquest") forum member, who listened to it several times and wrote it all down in its entirety, word for word, then posted the transcript in the forum. As mentioned at the beginning by Jigsaw:

"My family thinks I have flipped totally, but I don't care, the way I see it I'm performing a service to humanity. I may not even own a telescope, but I can type 60 wpm. Bottom line, the BA wiped the floor with her, but she was so far out in LaLa Land that she didn't even notice …"

Nancy's response to criticism

Nancy Lieder typically has a harsh response to questions she and the Zetas cannot immediately answer, and to criticism of her arguments. The examples of this are legion in her posts to the Usenet newsgroups sci.astro and sci.astro.amateur.

At other times her "Zetas" have displayed anger when a post on sci.astro suggested Nancy might need medication[33].

After the "tt-invasion" a few people from sci.astro began frequenting Nancy's ZetaTalk sessions on IRC. Her response? Ignore their questions, accuse them of 'working for sex' and being paid 'disinfo artists'. In fact, Nancy appeared to be deeply concerned with the imagined sexual relationship between two sci.astro 'intruders' on her ZetaTalk IRC sessions… so obsessed that she began an insulting rant every time they showed up. Eventually the owner of the server kick-banned her from her own channel. This resulted in a new 'closed' chat channel being set up on another server which was ruled with an iron fist by a new moderator. No 'skeptical' questions allowed[27].

Turning against former allies

On the "Troubled-Time" groups, it was common, if not frequent, for members to be ostracized if they were too helpful, or if they contradicted something Nancy said, or if they asked too many questions.

Charlene Incident

"Charlene" was a member of the TT groups as well as a poster on sci.astro. At first Nancy praised her efforts and posts… until Charlene made an error. Then Nancy and one of Nancy's close disciples went after Charlene, publicly excoriating her on sci.astro and on the TT groups until she quit. [28]

Hazlewood saga

Mark Hazelwood joined the TT groups, and immediately began trolling them with various schemes to make money, including illegal pyramid schemes, and other 'get rich quick' schemes. Then he wrote a book that lifted much of the ZetaTalk website, and began promoting it, including appearances on "Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell". Despite repeated statements that she was not interested in money, and that her only goal was to get the message out, she threatened legal action against Hazelwood, and once again began publicly excoriating him as a 'government agent of disinformation'[29].


When the moderators of the TT groups failed to immediately remove (i.e. "ban") members who were not disciples of Lieder, or were overt skeptics, Lieder engineered a 'takeover' of the group, replacing the existing moderators with ones who were more favorable toward Lieder's demands. Specifically with board members of the Troubled Times non-profit corporation[30].

Witch Hunts

Brian Gilbanks documents several 'witch hunts' on the TT groups, where members who get out of line by doing things like asking why, with the pole shift supposedly coming, Nancy is spending time talking about the Jon Benet Ramsey case[31].

Zeta Talk Exposed!

A long time moderator at Nancy Lieder's PoleShift site "Co S" has resigned and exposed some of Nancy's tactics in a Google Document1

Read through it, and especially read through the links that "Co S" (a.k.a. "Disgruntled" in Nancy-Speak) has assembled.

Other Reading


We have shown that Nancy Lieder is hopelessly confused about basic astronomy topics. She has no experience or training in astronomy or astrophysics, and that the claims she makes run counter to known physics that even elementary school students understand. She is unable to rebut critiques and instead makes a retreating claims (e.g. That 'humans do not know everything') or she resorts to invective, ad-hominem attacks, claims of vast conspiracies and plots to discredit her.

1. Wikipedia. 2009. Wikipedia: Betty and Barney Hill Abduction: Deciphering the Star Map (accessed 2009-06-11)
2. Lieder, Nancy. Nancy's Bio ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-06-10)
3. Lieder, Nancy. 1995 ZetaTalk: Communications ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-06-10)
4. Lieder, Nancy. ZetaTalk: Hazelwood, Disinfo Pawn of the Day ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-30)
5. The Skeptical Mind. 2003. What Is Known About Nancy Lieder (accessed 2009-06-11)
6. Lieder, Nancy. 2005 ZetaTalk: Subtle Message ZetaTalk website (accessed 2009-06-10)
7. Lieder, Nancy. 2002 Live ZetaTalk Chat Dec 14 2002 ZetaTalk website (accessed 2009-06-19)
8. Lieder, Nancy. Troubled Times: ZetaTalk Accuracy ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-06-10)
9. Lieder, Nancy. ZetaTalk: Stonehenge ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-06-10)
10. Taverner, Roger; Chippendale, Christopher. 2001. How They Rebuilt Stonehenge "The Western Daily Press".
11. Young, Emma. 2001. Concrete evidence NewScientist website.
12. Lieder, Nancy. 1995 Hale-Bopp - What's Going Down usenet sci.astro.amateur
13. Lieder, Nancy. ZetaTalk: Hale-Bopp sci.astro debates ZetaTalk website.
14. Laughton, Paul. 1997 Nancy's Hale-Bopp Party
15. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. ZetaTalk Deception
16. Lieder, Nancy. et. al. 2002. sci.astro: OT: Current Magnitude of Planet X, per Zetas? usenet sci.astro
17. UFO Folklore Center UFO Folklore Center: Barney and Betty Hill (accessed 2009-06-15)
18. Wikipedia. 2009. Communion (book) (accessed 2009-06-11)
19. Ruby-Spears Productions, et. al. 1980 Thundar the Barbarian: Episode 1 YouTube.
20. Lieder, Nancy. 1998 Planet X/12th Planet Long Elliptical Orbit usenet messageid 6ftpbo$moc.mocten.xi.7nxi-xjs|uk6#moc.mocten.xi.7nxi-xjs|uk6
21. Lieder, Nancy. 2005 ZetaTalk: Where is Planet X? ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-06-10)
22. Lieder, Nancy. ZetaTalk: Pole Shift ZetaTalk website. (accessed 2009-06-10)
24. Lieder, Nancy. 1995. ZetaTalk: ZetaTypes (accessed 2009-06-10)
25. Lieder, Nancy. 1995. ZetaTalk: Variety of Life Forms (accessed 2009-06-10)
26. Lieder, Nancy, 1995-09-25. What's Going Down - the Zetas Explain Planet X and the Pole Shift website, copy of usenet post to sci.astro. (accessed 2009-06-25)
27. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. Nasty Nancy (accessed 2009-06-25)
28. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. The Charlene Incident
29. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. The Hazelwood Saga
30. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. The TT-Takeover
31. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. Witch-Hunts
32. Gilbanks, Brian. 2003. tt-invasion (accessed 2009-06-25)
33. The Skeptical Mind. 2003. The Zeta Reticulans Get Angry The Skeptical Mind website.

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